Complex Page Numbering Help

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Hello! I'm working on a 1300+ page technical document, and the owner wants some complex numbering. In lieu of a running head in the footer, they would like each page to indicate what "sections" of the book are on that page (ie. Section 1.4A to 1.6B)--note these sections start mid-page, so I can't use InDesign's sections. 

The last version of this book did this numbering manually. I've got the actual sections set up with a List, but I'm not sure how to reference the sections in the footer--and I'd like to avoid the manual approach. Any suggestions?

[Peter Spier]

If the section number text appears on the page (and it could be non-printing) I think this could be accomplished using two Running Header variables one for first and one for last occurrence.

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Thank you! I tried that, but because the actual section numbering is being achieved with a Numbered List, the numbers aren't "text" that I can pull. I can pull the Words (ie. Sect. 1.08 This Is An Example -- creates the running head "THIS IS AN EXAMPLE") but not the numerals. Unless you have a suggestion?

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Thank you! I tried that, but because the actual section numbering is being achieved with a Numbered List, the numbers aren't "text" that I can pull. I can pull the Words (ie. Sect. 1.08 This Is An Example -- creates the running head "THIS IS AN EXAMPLE") but not the numerals. Unless you have a suggestion?

By default99d2y87k82lj

Extracting numbering isn't a problem at all - but that would require more or less a dedicated scripting solution. 

[Peter Spier]

Thank you! I tried that, but because the actual section numbering is being achieved with a Numbered List, the numbers aren't "text" that I can pull. I can pull the Words (ie. Sect. 1.08 This Is An Example -- creates the running head "THIS IS AN EXAMPLE") but not the numerals. Unless you have a suggestion?

By default99d2y87k82lj

As I mentioned in my original answer the text need not actually be set to print, just appear on the page, so you can add a non-printing text frame at each section start and type the section number info into that using a unique paragraph or character style to trigger the variables.

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Interesting solution, but would I have to then place that non-printing text frame on each section start/anchor it to the actual section text so it moves with it?

[Barb Binder]

Hi @default99d2y87k82lj:

I know before I start typing that this is not the answer that you are looking for or want to hear: InDesign has adopted some, but not all of Adobe FrameMaker's technical document layout features. Not being able to call in auto-numbers into a variable is a prime example of how InDesign falls short.

Just the page count alone is saying use FrameMaker, as is the fact that it is a technical document. These types of files are why FrameMaker is still around since it was introduced in the mid-80s. No other application can do what FrameMaker can. Word wants to, but undoubtably you switched to Indesign because of the instability in technical document layout in Word.

~Barb

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

I know the forums dislike "me too" posts but I wanted to second Barb's suggestion for FrameMaker.

[default99d2y87k82lj]

I'll have to investigate FrameMaker, thank you!

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@default99d2y87k82lj

Can you post some screenshots of what exactly you want to achieve?

I mean how your text looks like? 

Or better yet - please upload some sample file. If you prefer to share it privately - please click my nickname. 

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Of course. Here's one example footer: 

The part on the left-hand side is what is working in Word that I need to replicate in InDesign.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@default99d2y87k82lj 

But that's just a screenshot from WORD...

Can you share either your WORD or better yet - InDesign file?

You can share it privately if you prefer - please click my nickname.

[default99d2y87k82lj]

I can't share the actual document, but here's a lorem ipsum version that shows the format of the footer I'm trying to recreate.

[Peter Spier]

That could definitely be done with two variables IF you add a non-printing text frame in the margin at everysection start and type in the number. Of course that isn't an automated process, and perhaps @Robert at ID-Tasker can find a way to extract the section number using his tool so you won't have to manually add frames.

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Thank you, Peter, I understand! If we can't do it automatically, the non-printing text frame sounds as complex as manually typing in the footer -- seems like a tricky situation no matter what! My ideal may be to just convince the client they actually should love a Running Head!

[Peter Spier]

@default99d2y87k82lj I think the variables would be a bit less work as you could put them on the Parent Page and they would fill in on all pages automatically, but yeah, it does mean some typing.

[Peter Spier]

Well hang on. Looking at the word doc example, when you place that the section numbers come in as text, right? I had thought you were using the section number assigned in the Section and Numbering dialog, but apparently not.

If those numbers are selectable text, they could be assigned a character style using a GREP Find/Change query and used directly in the variables.

[default99d2y87k82lj]

The numbers themselves aren't coming in as text; I've got to auto-number them via a Paragraph style (basically treating them as numbering). So no, I can't select those numbers.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@default99d2y87k82lj 

It's not a problem at all to get this info extracted - last column:

If you work on Windows - I can't get this info from the WORD document 😉 - I can give you access to the full version of my ID-Tasker tool for free for a few days(*). If you finish your job in those few days - perfectly fine with me. If you'll need any extra functionality - I'll add it for free - even if you won't buy IDT.

(*) What you see on the screenshot is available for free - but it's just a "browser" part.

Although, can be used to achieve - for free - paid functionality, but would require a bit of clicking 😉

[default99d2y87k82lj]

That's very thoughtful, thank you. Can you help me understand how this would work? I'd use your tool to extract which section is where and then...? 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

That's very thoughtful, thank you. Can you help me understand how this would work? I'd use your tool to extract which section is where and then...? 

By default99d2y87k82lj

It would work pretty much the same way as with built-in Running Header functionality - my IDT would extract information dynamically - and put this info in the correct places.

Here are only Paragraphs with styles with info that you would like to extract  - sorted by Page Index:

Page Index - not Page Name - so the order will be correct. 

If you would've more of the same ParaStyle results per page - only first / last will be used.

BTW, I've noticed, that you've "Body Text" applied to something that looks like a list:

But I'm pretty sure, that's only because, it's a sample file, right?

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Ha, well it is because it is a sample file but also the original has each paragraph numbered with small numbers, so it's body text but is also a numbered list--a numbered list that restarts at each section number, actually. 

This is actually what the full numbered list looks like:

• 1 - H3 SectionA Subhead
  • 2 – H3 Edited Section Subhead
    • 3- Body #s
    • 3 – Body #s BLUE
      • 4- TextA Alpha
      • 4- TextB Alpha
      • 4 – TextC Alpha
      • 4 – TextD Alpha
      • 4 – Text Numbered
        • 5- Text (alpha)
          • 6- Text (123)

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@default99d2y87k82lj

But it should have a dedicated ParaStyle?

[default99d2y87k82lj]

Yes the "body" text in this case is the "Body #s" set in the numbered list above. The real document has no conventional body text. It's possibly my slapped together sample wasn't the clearest!

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@default99d2y87k82lj 

Also, if you would like to only use "numbers" - marked in red - and remove Section/Chapter/Part from the original texts - marked in green - no big deal:

Of course, all the steps can be saved as Tasks and loaded when needed for execution.