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jan99x
jan99x
Inspiring
November 18, 2021
Answered

difference: FROGRA27 and FROGRA39 place from PS into Ind

  • November 18, 2021
  • 2 replies
  • 21421 views

Hi,

I had PS-PSD document that was in CMYK + FROGRA27.

I placed that in InDesign (std set to FROGRA39).

Than export it to PDF (+FROGRA39).

Later I saw that the PS doc was set to FROGRA27 instead of FROGRA39.

Question:

1) Is there a conversion done (color change or other things) when placing from PS to Ind?

2) Does it matter for printing annyway?

2) Is it possible to check a PDF doc ... which FROGRA.. it has in it?

 

Correct answer rob day

There isn’t much color appearance difference, but FOGRA27 allows 350% total ink, while FOGRA39 has a 330% limit. The total ink limit is only enforced when you make a conversion—if you edit after making the conversion to CMYK mode there is no total ink limit on the edits.

 

Also you can avoid unwanted CMYK-to-CMYK conversions, or conversions to the wrong CMYK space by placing RGB images with embedded profiles and turning on Overprint Preview. In that case all of the profiled RGB images can be converted to the final destiantion CMYK space on Export or even at output. 

2 replies

Jens Trost
Jens Trost
Inspiring
November 23, 2021

Just to weigh in here and trying not to get to technically:
Coated FOGRA XY both are not "official" profiles recommended in the printing industry. It's a long standing UserVoice issue to convince Adobe to include the "official" (provided by the European Color Initiative, eci.org) profiles.

True – the different is very small and doesn't really matter, but the "correct" profile to use would be either "ISO coated v2" or "ISO coated v2 300%" where later reduces the TAC (total ink/area coverage) to 300%.

Those Profiles, either "Coated..." from Adobe or "ISO..." from ECI are based on characterization sets created by Fogra (a organization which is leading in the standardisation of printing and mostly leading ISO 12647). This set represent a certain printing condition meaning paper/machine (e.g. sheetfed offset on coated stock) combination.
You can see a list here: https://fogra.org/en/downloads/work-tools/characterisation-data

All that being said: both – 27 and 39 – are outdated. 27 even more than 39.

There was a revision back in 2013 of ISO 12647 (which standardizes the dot gain and target LAB values of CMYK ink in offset printing, the guts of the profile so to speak) which lead to the creation of Fogra 51 – or as profile: "PSO coated v3"

This profile in fact has some advantages/changes in deep blues:
the shift into a magentaish bluish color was optimized and results now in a cleaner blue.

BUT: always ask your printer what profile to use. Still a lot of printers ask for ISO coated v2.
Not mentioning to use the right profile for the final paper on which is printed...

    rob day
    Community Expert
    rob dayCommunity Expert
    Community Expert
    November 18, 2021

    1) Is there a conversion done (color change or other things) when placing from PS to Ind?

     

    How the placed file’s profile is handled depends on the document’s CMYK Color Management Policy, which is set in Color Settings and is saved with the document when it is created.

     

    If the Policy is set to Preserve Embedded Profiles, and the profile was embedded with the image, the Links Info will list the profile. In this case if you export to Document CMYK Coated FOGRA39, the linked image will get converted from FOGRA27 to FOGRA39—it would be the same as doing a Convert to Profile... in Photoshop.

     

     

    If the Policy was set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles), Link Info will show the Profile as Document CMYK. This would be the same as assigning the FOGRA39 profile in Photoshop via Assign Profile..., the CMYK output values would not change, but the displayed color appearance might:

     

     

     

    Is it possible to check a PDF doc ... which FROGRA.. it has in it?

     

    Yes, you can use Output Preview’s Object Inspector:

     

    Preserve Numbers policy exported to PDF/X-4 (no conversion):

     

     

      jan99x
      jan99xAuthor
      Inspiring
      November 18, 2021

      @rob day 

      Thanks for reply.

      Clear answer.

      One question more: does it matter which FOGRAxx is used in terms of color difference van het drukwerk (with use of "normal" color use.

      rob day
      Community Expert
      rob dayCommunity ExpertCorrect answer
      Community Expert
      November 18, 2021

      There isn’t much color appearance difference, but FOGRA27 allows 350% total ink, while FOGRA39 has a 330% limit. The total ink limit is only enforced when you make a conversion—if you edit after making the conversion to CMYK mode there is no total ink limit on the edits.

       

      Also you can avoid unwanted CMYK-to-CMYK conversions, or conversions to the wrong CMYK space by placing RGB images with embedded profiles and turning on Overprint Preview. In that case all of the profiled RGB images can be converted to the final destiantion CMYK space on Export or even at output. 

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