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Export changes K=100% to CMYK in PDF

Forum|Forum|2 years ago
November 16, 2023
4 replies
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Hi,

I have designed a booklet in InDesign with standard setting (seems to be Fogra39). We have even printed it with a printing firm without issues. Now we are moving to a new printing firm and they want the export in FOGRA52. But if we switch the export our black K=100% text is exported as CMYK mixture (if I turn black off in Adobe Print preview, I still see the text in the 3 other colors) and the printing firm is saying that it will have undesirable shadows.

Problem: When exporting with a new color profile, our K=100% becomes CMYK.

Desired result: use FOGRA52 for export and change just the export settings and still keep the text in K=100%

Any idea how to do that?

Here a few screenshots:

NEW export settings (just showing the differences to the working export, which is just the color conversion into the target profile):

This is the only change we do in comparison to the previous export that works just fine.

This are the settings that work (Fogra39 and not color conversion):

And these are all the basic settings I could think of that have something to do with color. But I would like to just correct the export and not all the other programm settings (if possible):

Color Settings (standard - no changes done) (as I understand, this is for all future documents, so we do not want that):

True Black (tested changing "use correct black for output" -> didn't yield any effect in the export result):

Set Color profile (as I understand this is just for display and as I have no calibrated display, it makes no difference):

and lastly

convert profile (I have seen in a different thread that "placed object are not converted" - so why would I use this):

I have even reinstalled Adobe Pro, which was a suggestion in an different thread with a similar issue.

What am I missing?

Thank you very much for any input

This topic has been closed for replies.

Correct answer rob day

What am I missing?

Hi @Improving , Coated FOGRA39 (your document’s Assigned CMYK profile) and PSO Uncoated v3 (your Export Destiantion) are not the same profiles, so the conflict forces the conversion of Black to 4-color. Set your document‘s CMYK profile to PSO Uncoated via Edit>Assign Profiles... (not Edit>Convert to Profile), and in the Export>Output tab set the Destination to Document CMYK - PSO Uncoated.

S

steven91051580

Participant

After struggling with this for a while, on discussion with a supplier, I managed to get the black to stop converting to CMYK by using a PDF/X standard, which opened up the Output Intent Profile Name menu that was greyed out previously. See attached.

I

ImprovingAuthor

Known Participant

@rob day I am so thankful for your input. Thank you! This is all a bit confusing for me, so thank you for all your patience!

I think I understand some of it, but am still (or again?) confused on other parts.

Please allow me to recap in my own words and feel free to correct me, where I am wrong:

.... at the beginning..... I had the issue that my black was converted from K=100 to CMYK when exporting.

The issue was that the color profile (under assign profiles) was a different one (Fogra39) from the export profile (Fogra52). So I had to match that, otherwise there was a forced conversion, which lead to the issue of converting black to shades of black. I think I understand.

NOW, the orange does not match our past experience with Fogra39. That is because same CMYK values on different papers do not have the same "look/shade" due to the differnt paper. So in order to get the same "look/shade" in real life on different papers I need to convert the CMYK color (because the same color in different profiles, does not mean same color no different papers).

A question/confusion that goes back to the begining to my question and your answer (by the way I have not yet run "convert to profile"):

and lastly convert profile (I have seen in a different thread that "placed object are not converted" - so why would I use this):

Also, Convert to Profile converts native InDesign colors and swatches ony, with the exception of the default [Black] swatch, which gets protected.

So in your case where the document has been assigned Coated FOGRA, but your output Destination is Uncoated FOGRA, you can choose to assign PSO Uncoated and the CMYK color values will not change but their appearance will—they display as they are expected to print on the uncoated sheet.

Or, you can choose Convert to Profile and the native CMYK Swatches and Colors will get new CMYK values and their appearance will be remain unchanged if they are in the PSO Uncoated color gamut. The [Black] Swatch would be unchanged, but any black only gray swatches would get converted to 4-color.

I had to read that multiple time, after running into the orange problem and only now it makes a bit more sense.

Going forward --------------------------------------------------

I think, I need to do "convert to profile", because I want the orange to look the same across different papers. So I should expect, that the CMYK values will change. ok. Black should still be ok. So yes, that is what we want.

1. So I just go to "Edit > convert to profile > Fogra52"?

2. Strangely, when I go to convert profile it says the CMYK: Fogra52. But I am 100% sure I have not yet run the conversion . Also when I run it, the orange remains dark.

When I set "assign profile" back to Fogra39 the source CMYK profile changes under "convert profile" and the orange looks as we are used to it.

So what are the correct steps, to have this latest orange exported under Fogra52?

Seems like, I should not use asign profile to 52 but return it to 39? When I then do "convert profile" to 52, the color remains the orange we want it. When I then check "asign profile", I see 52, thus the conversion worked also on "asign profile". And exporting it with in

Color conversion: convert to destination

Destination: PSO Uncoated v3 (Fogra52)

The orange is light again.... I think that is it?!? But are these really the logical steps (also for future projects, as all of our data is in Fogra39).

Yet, I am now again confused on the differnce of "asign vs convert" profile 😄

Why did the "asign profile" show up in the "convert profile" as the source CMYK profile, given that it was only assigend and not coverted and also if the results between asign and convet are actually different?

rob day

Community Expert

2. Strangely, when I go to convert profile it says the CMYK: Fogra52. But I am 100% sure I have not yet run the conversion . Also when I run it, the orange remains dark.

The Convert to Profile dialogs you are showing have the same profiles as the source and destination so nothing happens.

The difference between assign and convert is with assign you are simply changing the document’s assigned profile—the output values don’t change. If the CMYK profile is changed all CMYK colors are displayed in the new space—the amount of appearance change depends on how different the profiles (printing conditions) are.

Convert to Profile does two things—the actual CMYK output values are changed for the new printing conditions and the new destination profile is assigned. In many cases the color appearance is preserved because the new assignment compensates for the change in values.

It sounds like you are looking for an easy way for a branded color to have the same appearance across different print output devices. Using a CMYK color as the "master" color can be a problem because the appearance of any CMYK color is dependent on device or profile assignment. This thread might be useful where the "master color" defined as a device independent Lab color:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/indesign-discussions/branding-color-guide/td-p/10818696

I

ImprovingAuthor

Known Participant

Yes, we want a standard color to remain same across different print outputs. I have skimmed your link, but will need more time to fully understand it.

So is it as for now the correct approach, to have the CMYK same output with 39 as with 52?

return asign profile to Fogra39
convert profile to Fogra52
Exporting it with

Color conversion: convert to destination

Destination: PSO Uncoated v3 (Fogra52)

Thanks!

rob day

Community Expert

and lastly convert profile (I have seen in a different thread that "placed object are not converted" - so why would I use this):

Also, Convert to Profile converts native InDesign colors and swatches ony, with the exception of the default [Black] swatch, which gets protected.

So in your case where the document has been assigned Coated FOGRA, but your output Destination is Uncoated FOGRA, you can choose to assign PSO Uncoated and the CMYK color values will not change but their appearance will—they display as they are expected to print on the uncoated sheet.

Or, you can choose Convert to Profile and the native CMYK Swatches and Colors will get new CMYK values and their appearance will be remain unchanged if they are in the PSO Uncoated color gamut. The [Black] Swatch would be unchanged, but any black only gray swatches would get converted to 4-color.

I

ImprovingAuthor

Known Participant

Ok, so if I understand it correctly, I do not want any surprises with colors, I do it the way you proposed (assign profile) and then export.

But I am still confused, why the pure change of "appearance" (colors will not change but thier looks on display will) and then the export of the appearance does not change the [black], BUT if I only do the export, without the change of "appearance" I get the [black] changed to CMYK. Why is it important for export, how I "as human see" the colors?

I

ImprovingAuthor

Known Participant

And one more if I may. With the edit > color profile, I changed the apperance. But where do I see the current document profile, as InDesign uses it. Because if those are different, that would explain to me, why I still had to pick color conversion during export (because what I see, is not what the program has set in the background), rather then use "no color conversion".

rob day

Correct answer

Community Expert

What am I missing?

Hi @Improving , Coated FOGRA39 (your document’s Assigned CMYK profile) and PSO Uncoated v3 (your Export Destiantion) are not the same profiles, so the conflict forces the conversion of Black to 4-color. Set your document‘s CMYK profile to PSO Uncoated via Edit>Assign Profiles... (not Edit>Convert to Profile), and in the Export>Output tab set the Destination to Document CMYK - PSO Uncoated.

I

ImprovingAuthor

Known Participant

@rob day you are a life saver, I was reading on it for hours now, but as I am just learning all the stuff, not everything makes sense to me right away.

As you seem to understand the differences between the following, can you please confirm I understood it correctly, or even better maybe explain the differences in a very basic way :). The reason I didn't try what you proposed is that I read in different forums, that the assign profile is just for the monitor ... which does not seem to be correct.

Can you please help me with my understanding:

edit > color settings (for all future projects - does not impact the current one)
edit > Assign Profiles ...? (not only for monitors ... 🙂 )
edit > Convert to Profile (why not use this - I read "Assigning a new profile doesn’t change the colors’ output values" - so what does it do?)
export .. why did you chose the Dokument-CMYK and not the "standalone" "PSO Uncoated V3". And why did you actually chose any conversion at all, given that the profile was already in "PSO Uncoated V3" after the first change.

Thank you so much for helping me learn more!

rob day

Community Expert

edit > color settings (for all future projects - does not impact the current one)

If an existing document has CMYK and RGB profiles assigned, the Color Settings Working Spaces have no affect on the document. Generally speaking you always want to assign profiles to a document otherwise the color appearance for that document would always be changing depending on what the current Color Settings’ Working spacess happen to be.

edit > Assign Profiles ...? (not only for monitors ... 🙂 )

No. The assigned document profiles color manage the document (Color Settings does not unless there is no document assignment).

The profile assignments have nothing to do with monitor profiling. The monitor profile (which is set by the OS when a monitor is calibrated), is important because the profiled document colors gets converted into the Monitor RGB space (profile) for display. So in the case of a CMYK color, if either the CMYK profile assignment or the System’s Monitor Profile are wrong the display will be less accurate.

And why did you actually chose any conversion at all, given that the profile was already in "PSO Uncoated V3" after the first change.

When you choose Convert Colors with the Destination set to Document CMYK, the native CMYK colors and swatches export unchanged, but any RGB color, or CMYK images with conflicting profiles, would get converted into the Destination CMYK space.

In general there is no need to place CMYK images because the conversion from profiled RGB to Document CMYK on an InDesign export would be the same as making the conversion in Photoshop assuming the same source and destiantion profiles—it’s a more efficient way to color manage.

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