Frame edge highlighting

[Jeremy AB]

A new feature in InDesign CS5 is Frame edge highlighting. I find it quite annoying and can't find a way to disable it... anyone know how?

[ukdesign1]

rephrase...

I thought to myself today... "Are adobe running out of real feature ideas to add?"

Your list should be sent to them!!

[peter_minneapolis]

First of all, apologies to Bob for quoting the entire list; usual disclaimer about difficulty of editing forum posts on the Web interface.

LEGEND:

  ***       = Me too

+++      = Already requested AFAIK

P@K    = peter at knowhowpro comment/response

Eugene Tyson wrote:

ukdesign1 wrote:

I thought to myself today... Are adobe running out of real features to add?

1. *** Footnotes spaning columns
2. *** +++ Variables that can run-on multiple lines
3. P@K This could backfire, depending on which time zone the creator and the print vendor, Web server, etc, are in, as well as what time a set of project files is actually opened and processed. Consider, instead, using a static text in a variable named, for example, "PrintDate," that you enter and synchronize across all project files when beginning a new issue. Variable dates that you can increase by +1 or +2, like if you editing in March and sending for print, but it won't be done until April, you should be able to have a variable date increase so there is no need to update constantly.
4. +++ Sync Footnote Options through book panel
5. P@K I'm not sure I understand the intent, but I can see the need for a smarter paragraph rule mechanism. *** +++ Paragraph rule dialog box that shows properties for both rule above and below in a single pane. Percentages for Paragraph Rule Above and Rule Below, i.e., instead of 10pt you insert 110% meaning that now matter how many lines the paragraph is that the rule is always 5% above and 5% below (or offset if you want)
6. +++ P@K This is a lossy and risky thing, IMO. Saving back more than 1 version
7. P@K Can you explain this further? You can create multiple faux chapters in a single document via auto-numbered paragraph styles; however, you can't capture them in running header text variables. Would enhanced running header text variables that can capture paragraph autonumbers deliver what you need? However, faux chapter-page numbers can be captured in TOCs and indexes    Allow chapters in a single file (not through sections so that you can use the Chapter feature instead of having to split small files into multiple files and use the book feature)
8. Allow selecting of non-adjoing text (like Word can for so many years)
9. +++ P@K What virtue would this offer over placing spreadsheet files? Smart and versatile table sorting would be a good addition. Calculations in Tables.
10. +++ P@K How would you want to handle fills, strokes, text insets across such splits; with new optional property settings? Table cells that split over frames, columns
11. Scaling an image gives you the Actual and Effective PPI when Smart Guides are on (instead of percentage of scale or xy coords)
12. Make the Background Tasks more accessible (there is an icon on the Menu Bar that flashes but you can't do anything with it?)
13. Object>Clipping Path>Options for more than 1 photo (I often have up to 20 image with clipping paths and it's time consuming to go through the "Show Options" for each object (Jongware wrote me a script to fix this)
14. *** P@K Yes! There's no way other than screen shots, or laborious cut/paste from Story Editor now. Allow printing of Tracked Changes
15. When you use the page tool to resize a page it becomes detached from the page adjacent
16. Inside bleeds (it can be done manually or with a script but it can be time consuming)
17. Spreads Option in File>Export>PDF (Interactive)
18. *** +++ Option for turning on and off frame edge highlighting
19. Smaller target for Content Grabber
20. Transparency Icon for Pages Panel should be on by default (it's not)
21. Action Panel (record actions)
22. *** P@K Actually, smart list properties would be better; FrameMaker's structured mode - essentially a combination of a rule-based mode in which a parsing engine is always at work, something like InDesign's GREP styles behavior, and SGML/XML markup- can designate list elements as first, notfirst, middle, between, notbetween, last, not last, and perhaps others I've overlooked. and specify their behavior and formatting. Smart Bullets (so that the first bullet Keeps with the next line and the last bullet keeps with the Previous bullet)
23. Master Colours for sections (so that I can set a colour say Pantone 376 to the master page of a section, then I can set the Paragraph Style to use the master colour. That way I can use Multiple Master Pages, and whatever page that is applied to I can change the Master Page colour to change the colour in the paragraph style. Currently I have to create a master page, add the colours, styles etc. for each heading and folio, and then duplicate the master page and make the options again. Much handier to set the Master Page colour to Pantone 376, in the Paragraph Style choose Master Page colour. Then when I apply that master page to a page whatever Paragraph Style has that "Master Colour" selected in Character Colour, then it uses the colour I set up on the master page.

Ok it's home time now - but I'll keep working on this list

(I'm aware some of this is already accomplished with scripts etc.)

[EDIT]

RE: Item 9 above:

DTP Tools just announced a free public beta of their Active Tables table calculating and sorting InDesign plug-in.

http://www.dtptools.com/product.asp?id=atid

I have no commercial connection to DTP Tools; just a happy user, and occasional reviewer of their products.

[/EDIT]

Regards,

Peter

_______________________

Peter Gold

KnowHow ProServices

Message was edited by: peter at knowhowpro

[Jongware]

Now those would make ID a Killer Pub program.

... Was anyone from this forum a member of Michael Ninness' Consumer Advisory Board? (I don't think so.)

[BobLevine]

Nobody in this thread, anyway.

Bob

[Eugene Tyson]

3. This would only in the file that you make then export to PDF - I can see the potential danger if sending to a vendor the acutal indesign files.

5. If you make a paragraph rule, say to highlight a heading, if you have other headings that are over 2 lines, then the Paragraph Rule doesn't cover both lines. I'd much prefer a "percentage" where it would cover 100% of the paragraph and not just a set unit of measurement, like "pts".

6. I understand the issues with Backsaving, but I can absolute legitimate reasons for this. E.g., if you are starting up a company and you are likely to buy CS5 Master. Then you land a client working on CS2 or CS3. You wouldn't know that files can't be opened back in CS2 or CS3 (unless you look up but who knows to look it up?) Think about it, there are versions, CS, CS2, CS3, CS4, CS5 and eventually CS6, CS7 and so on.

Perhaps a Back Save option is too literal here - but perhaps a way to turn on only features available in a previous version. Perhaps a CS3 mode, or CS2 mode, where only the things native to those programs are accessible in CS5, CS6 etc. Then some way to save it to CS3 or an inx file. That would mean the onus would be on you to make sure the file is accurate going to the client. Just an idea I dreamt up one day and I'm not sure how plausible it is.

7. The use of actual Chapter Numbers in a single document - using ^H

9. I often have to use tables and would like a way to include a calculation, when I update figures it would total it for me. I'm sure it has it's mertis. I see your link to DTP tools.

10. Fills, Strokes, etc. would be retained. The cell splits over a frame or column or whatever, and naturally there would be no stroke where it spits as it runs on. Insets etc. should be retained.

22. I'm not familiar with Framemaker - but it sounds like the ticket.

[Ben_Frey]

6. Seems to me that most of the changes between versions could easily be retained by at the most converting "automated" things (table styles, custom corner effects, GREP styles) into static elements, and for anything that could not back-save, just put up a warning, a la Illustrator, saying that cross references and hyperlinks and animations and videos might not be retained when saving back to ID version X.0. None of the effects have changed over the years... You can't really tell a difference between a document made in CS 2 and CS5 aside from interactive elements. Just break links to table and GREP styles and a couple other things, and you've basically got an equivalent file in CS2.

The main differences between the versions are from a user interface standpoint. That's as it should be, but artificially killing backwards compatibility just seems like a money grab/forced upgrade system.

[Eugene Tyson]

Well the main point of the list is this -

I could have written 100 things "I want" and as Peter so kindly responded with the Legend, proves that Peter does not want some of these features, wants some of them and isn't bothered about others.

There are a lot of users of InDesign in the world. And "we" all want different things. So you can safely multiply that 100 things by a factor of a thousand to get "everyone's" wish list.

Then you have to consider what is plausible and achieveable in the time scale to introduce, fix, update etc.

True that we need indesign to do more - but there are infinite requests for InDesign. The only way to get your voice truly heard is on the Wishlist.

I know it works - because I know CS4 had a serious problem importing Word files and when first heard it was announced it would not be fixed until CS5, a few internet campaigns popped up and low and behold in a dot release of CS4 update the issue was fixed.

So it does work.

But I bet there are hundreds of items added to the wishlist everyday. Some doable, some that need a lot of work, and some without enough people wanting it that it simply goes to the bottom of the list (I imagine)

[BobLevine]

I just love all these comments from armchair quarterbacks. Why is every time something comes up it always amounts to a money grab by the evil Adobe, Apple, Microsoft, etc. empire?

You make the argument that Illy and PS can save back and then accuse Adobe of not allowing ID to save back to force an upgrade. If it were a money grab NONE of the programs would save back.

Why can't it simply be a matter of saving back multiple versions just isn't all that easy? Do you realize it took four versions (five if you count 1.5) until they figured out a way to safely go back one version?

Sheesh! You want it, fine. Ask for it. But spare me the "money grab" accusations.

My goodness, I've stated this before but I'll do it again. Upgrading Creative Suite Design Premium every 18 months costs less than a cup of coffee every day. That's hardly a money grab in my opinion. I'll bet your internet service costs more than that.

Bob

[ukdesign1]

very true

the fact microsoft keep on supporting ie6 caused us web dev problems for years

[BobLevine]

Don't get me started on IE6. I now charge 30% more for IE 6 compatibility.

Client response after hearing that even google has dropped support for it is..."oh, nevermind that"

Bob

[Eugene Tyson]

It costs me two cups of coffee a day... the price in the US and Europe are massively different

YeH i'm not buying the money grab thingy either. I realise backsaving is obviously a difficult for Adobe to crack. But they can do it, remember the CS4 with IDML and INX export, there was only a matter of changing the header int he INX file.

I'm not having a go or anything, and I don't want to open another debate on backsaving, but it's just one thing on my list of potentially 100 things I want in InDesign, again, the list is only to illustrate that there are many many many requests and wants and needs of indesign users.

Certainly wasn't meant to open any debate of items on the list.

[BobLevine]

Like I said, Eugene...I have no issue with anyone asking for anything...it's the money grab accusation I have a problem with.

I'm not sure how many of the participants here are freelancers but everyone of them should understand what it's like to have a client question why they're being charged so much because anyone with a computer can make a (website, brochure, logo, etc). The reality of course is that it's just not that simple.

Bob

[ukdesign1]

Completely agree with this Bob

Too many bedroom designers out there who bought a pc with daddy's money and downloaded cs5 from a torrent... then poach our clients making out they are a professional and will do a website for a packet of sweets or a playstation game.

[Peter Spier]

Eugene Tyson wrote:

YeH i'm not buying the money grab thingy either. I realise backsaving is obviously a difficult for Adobe to crack. But they can do it, remember the CS4 with IDML and INX export, there was only a matter of changing the header int he INX file.

Are you referring to the "double downsave hack"? My undertanding is that isn't 100% reliable. I'm sure the screams would be pretty loud if Adobe issued a multiversion backsave that was only 99% reliable.

[Eugene Tyson]

Well it was a hack, but it was just changing the header information in the inx file, surely something more solid could have been achieved, and I say surely with hesitation as I don't know what is involved.

[Ben_Frey]

Maybe if I didn't have to buy a new CS every 18 months I could afford a cup of coffee every day. That would probably increase my productivity more in the long run.

Not a bad idea, Bob. thanks for the tip!

FYI, you can get pretty decent internet for pretty cheap if you dig deep on the ISP websites:

https://smallbusiness.bellsouth.com/form_order_dsl_direct.aspx

The best part about artificially limited internet speeds is that you get the advertised speed 24/7, unlike the "fastest" speeds that are basically theoretical. If you have 8mb cable, you're lucky to top out at 4.5mb. If you have 1 mb DSL, you get 1 MB all day long.

If backwards compatibility were at all a concern for the ID team, we would have it. It isn't like they hire a new team with every new version, and deny the new team access to the code of the old version. They start CS4 from CS3, and CS5 from CS4. I know they don't re-write the code every time from the ground up because the same bugs stick around all the time. PS did a complete basement-level re-write and introduced a ton of new bugs...and yet they still managed to make PSD files that you can open in Photoshop 7.

Anyone want to try and veer us back on-topic?

[BobLevine]

25/15 FiOS connection and I typically get 26/22. Not unusual to download at 2-2.5 megs/second.

Back on topic, the same could be said about any missing feature. If solid footnote support were a priority we'd have footnotes that span columns. We'd have full end note support, too.

But there's a limit on what can be done with limited resources (and yes, Adobe does have limited resources) Why everyone seems to think they're the size of Microsoft or Apple is beyond me. Going backward more than one version, IMO, while there are still very important features missing is a misuse of those resources especially since those features get lost with backsaves anyway.

I wonder what people waiting for those features would think if Adobe released CS6 and made a big splash by saying it could save all the way back to CS but footnote improvements would have to wait til CS7 or CS8. Think about that for second. Does it really make sense to worry about people who refuse to upgrade or do you reward those who do with the features that they need to work more efficiently?

Saving back more than one version is not something that is going to make any money for Adobe.

Do I hope they come up with something reliable for those who want it. Of course I do. But I don't think it's going to be a priority for a long time.

And I'll point something else out. I don't see any third party developers coming up with anything, either. These are companies that specialize in adding niche features to InDesign. Contrary to what you may read here, it's just not that big an issue and/or it's not that easy to solve, because if it was someone would had done it by now.

Bob

[Eugene Tyson]

Footnotes first - backsaving can take a back seat.

[Ben_Frey]

The issue isn't ME, it's the other people I work with. I had CS5 a week after release. If everyone was on CS5, then that would be great. I lost a freelance job last month because I don't have a way to install my copy of CS2 anymore and the client wasn't able to upgrade. This is someone I talked into moving from Quark a few years ago. They move slowly.

Can people who haven't purchased the creative suite post on this forum? I didn't know that. For some reason I thought it was tied to your account and purchases...

I also don't think you're dealing with a bunch of torrent babies on these forums even if they can get a login...

For me it would be enough that someone on the ID team would keep an eye towards backwards compatibility within the .indd file system going forward. Don't worry about the past, because it is too late, obviously. If they had started on CS4 with the thought that they should try and keep the files compatible with CS3, and then carried through with that philosophy, then it would have been a non-issue by now for the most part. It is a little disingenuous to say we could either have them maintain compatibility going forward in their own file format, OR have better footnotes. We certainly didn't get better footnotes in CS5, did we? We got animation. We got the topic of this thread (≠yay).

I would have rather had better footnotes than animation.

[BobLevine]

Which is why, contrary to your initial claim, the feature request page is where you should make that point.

And what if keeping the files compatible means they CAN'T change the footnote features? You know...just sayin'?

And yes, anyone can register and post here.

Bob

[ukdesign1]

In some ways Adobe add features but never put right the problems with existing features which affect everyday use.

In the case of frame edge highlighting a 'new feature' ruined workflow.

I agree backwards compatibility is an issue for some, but it is also quite easy to leave all versions installed, I have cs3, cs4 and cs5 installed.

I hardly ever have to backsave, as my clients only ever want me to export printable pdfs, and even then I arrange the print 90% of the time. On times when I have backsaved, they have had at least cs3.

Same as I said about ie6, it held back web technology, only now people are ditching dev for ie6 things are moving forward properly. However there are still those who cling to ie6, which creates problems for us all. I don't support ie6 anymore, and like Ben, if forced to, I would charge 30% more.

Another example, broadband. In the uk some areas suffer from slow internet whereas others get faster and faster broadband. However, most areas can now get at least 0.5mb, and most websites these days require 0.5mb to get a smooth viewing. Again though... there are some who stick with slow, old, outdated connections and don't bother to upgrade. If they choose to do that, they should also accept that some sites will be unuseable, just like if they used ie6.

So in a way, being behind by 1 or 2 versions is fine, but a client cannot expect you to support versions older than that when you have other work to do which requires up to date technology.

[Jongware]

Just break links to table and GREP styles and a couple other things, and you've basically got an equivalent file in CS2.

Absolutely -- 100% correct.

Adobe made a few odd choices here (perhaps they were perfectly logical at the time). For instance, every single object in a paragraph style has a unique identifier: [Font Name], [Point Size], [Leading], etc., and all of these have values associated with them. A CS4 or newer file has another property added: [GREP Styles] -- and it's usually empty. If they had decided not to add 'empty' elements at all, a CS4 file would largely already be CS3-friendly.

The other option is, erm, "Word"-like. Word stores its variable components as-is in the file but also adds "result" data. So it's possible to use a smart reference list (there are a couple of these) to insert references, but if I -- not having this Word add-on -- open the Word file, I can see and even edit the individual references, although its "smart" properties have gone. One of the Math Plugin programmers use this: its internal data is stored out of sight of the hapless user, but the equations it generates are regular InDesign objects, moved into place with frames, baseline shifts, and whatnot. You can open a document created with this plugin, ignore the warning, and print the equations, and even edit them (although tediously -- and if someone with the plugin opens the file, your 'manual' edits will be discarded in favor of the original data).

[Peter Spier]

Ben Frey wrote:

The main differences between the versions are from a user interface standpoint. That's as it should be, but artificially killing backwards compatibility just seems like a money grab/forced upgrade system.

That's pretty cynical. The main differnces that are readily apparent to a user might be inthe UI, but there's a heck of a lot under thood you don't see.

First, nobody ever forces anyone to upgrade -- that's your choice. Second, if backsaving was a trivial as some of you seem to think it would have been implemented the way you want it long ago. Anyone remember that the version 2 documentation says you can backsave, but it turned out they couldn't make it work and had to scrap it completely?

[BobLevine]

Actually that was CS (version 3) which was supposed to save back to version 2. The plugins were never released for version 2.

Bob

[Peter Spier]

Anything before this morning is a bit of a haze today....