How long to learn InDesign for an experienced web designer/writer/book-designer?

[keress]

I've been doing web design, mostly with WordPress, for 20 years.  I've professionally produced over 200 websites. I'm expert with HTML and CSS.  I'm also a writer/editor, well-versed in Chicago Manual of Style.  Recently, I've edited/designed over a dozen print-on-demand books and eBooks, some which look better than their big-editing-house first editions. 

https://www.amazon.com/Goatwalking-Wildland-Living-Peaceable-Kingdom-ebook/dp/B09C932M5D/ref=tmm_kin...

I can write .epub documents from scratch, coding all the HTML and CSS myself.  I'm also a Photoshop artist.  I'm using MSWord as the desktop publisher.  How much of a learning curve will it be to pick up InDesign?  I'm not convinced it would help me add much value to the work I'm already doing with MSWord.  I've used that since the first version, 40 years ago. (I put myself through my last year of college as a word processor.  Before that, all there were, were typewriters. Anybody ever heard of Vydek?)

It's invaluable that the author and I can go back and forth editing the book.  That wouldn't be possible in InDesign.  While I'm at it, I'm formatting it to look like a perfectly professional-looking book.  

Who can convince me that it will be worthwhile to put in that to-be-determined learning curve with InDesign?  This is morphing into a self-publishing service purely by word-of-mouth.  I'm researching how best to grow it.  

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

If you want to work on layout design part - and let author focus on the text content - then InDesign and InCopy combo should do the trick. 

[keress]

Part of my job is to be the editor of the content before/while preparing the manuscript for print.  Are you saying InCopy is a tool that will allow us to do the same kind of back-and-forth we can do in MSWord comments?  

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Not sure how can you work in WORD on the same document at the same time - but with InCopy, you can export only text part of the InDesign document so the other person can edit this text part - without interfering with the graphics / layout part of the document. 

[Laubender]

@keress said: "Who can convince me that it will be worthwhile to put in that to-be-determined learning curve with InDesign?"

Hm. I think the question is more what you do expect from InDesign what Word cannot do.

What are your expectations?

If you are looking for a workflow *.docx > InDesign > *.docx you should inspect the options you'll get with the InDesign plugIn WordsFlow. Of course, this comes with extra costs, but you could test WordsFlow as a free-trial.

http://emsoftware.com/products/wordsflow/

Regards,
Uwe Laubender
( Adobe Community Expert )

[Peter Spier]

There is a lot more typographic control and sophisitcation in InDesign than in Word, and worlds more layout control, but you might not need it if your focus is screen rather than print. I'm a print guy, but my understanding is that manyof the e-book formats don't look the same on screen, and that it's highly dependent on the reader software.

As far as collaboration with the author, I've done both large and small projects that have gone through a good deal of revision (and I frequently act as editor as well as designer) using InDesign and an exported PDF. Some authors will use PDF markups, some just send me a new Word file with changes.

[Randy Hagan]

When somebody asks me how long it will take to learn a given program, I generally respond that it comes down to three basic factors:

1. Do you have a use case for it? In short, do you have a need to use it? My most challenging students are the ones who want to just "learn the computer." From what you explain in your post here, it sounds like the work you do really doesn't offer a valid use case, unless you've decided you see business in producing prepress materials for book print production, and haven't shared that with us. It does have hooks to produce electronic book materials, but from what you describe you have a superior toolkit and expertise than anything InDesign can offer you for those tasks. InDesign is, despite the name, not a per se design tool. It's a production tool. If you're a lousy print designer, all it will allow you to do is produce more lousy design faster. Which gets to ...

2. Are you motivated to learn it? Only you can answer that question fully, but it sounds like that you're wondering if you need to master InDesign too? For the work you're currently doing, I'd say no. Again, it sounds like you have a fully developed toolkit to do your current work. If this fulfills your inner desire to learn something new associated with your current business, that'd be cool and I might say yes. But if you feel this is a burden or obligation just because other folks use this to do different work than you're doing now because you may put it to use someday, not so much. And finally ...

3. How much time and effort will you devote to learning, and using it? There are two ways to define "time to learn." One is how many hours you can devote to mastering the basics and building proficiency. The other is the overall timespan you'll allow yourself to reach that proficiency. If you're willing to devote 12-16 hours in straight education to learn the tools within the program, another 8-12 hours to develop skills in long document production and then execute a couple of sample print book production jobs from beginning to end to put those skills to use in a real-world simulation (I know that's basically a contradiction in terms, but I hope you understand the underlying point), you could probably be passably proficient in a busy couple of weeks. But if you're going to devote a couple of hours today, and come back to it in a month or two, where half of that learning dissipates because you're doing other things to make your living, it could take practically forever. You could shortcut that timeline by taking in-person classes or online training, but again, that means devoting more effort to accomplishing the process.

If you can answer these three questions, honestly, you'll have a good handle on exactly how long it will take you to learn InDesign for your needs. And a far better estimate than any of us could offer without knowing your specific needs, motivation and dedication to the task.

Hope this helps,

Randy

[keress]

I have people coming to me, asking me to get their books ready for print-on-demand and Kindle.  It's growing.  I've produced about a dozen titles.  I need to know if I'm doing a subpar job for them using MSWord.  The link I supplied above shows a book I re-created that looks fairly identical to the Penguin (I think it was) first edition.  Perhaps, that's just my ignorance.  My clients were pleased and recommended me to others.  I'm trying to figure out if I'll regret not cutting in InDesign to produce these books.  That it will make some difference in how well these efforts turn out and survive.  I'm serving basically a market of boomers with memoirs or works they wrote in the past they don't want to see go out-of-print. They're paying a respectable amount for my time.  There are plenty of times when MSWord behaves stupidly and I have to tame the beast to work properly.  Would I be more efficient in In Design?  Able to work faster?  Less stressed-out?  I'm trying to discern if there would be practical value to the expense in time and money to make that switch.

What's coming together is a body of aging peace and civil rights activists who are actively trying to preserve their own legacy by way of print-on-demand and eBooks.  This niche is coming to me.  How best do I serve it?

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Everything depends on the quality of the source material - or rather how much changes and how often will be required. 

If you'll have to constantly make serious changes - you'll either need to buy InCopy for the author(s) - and they'll have to learn how to use it - or WordsFlow plugin. 

If you are able to tame the WORD beast - InDesign can be much more stressful as you would need to learn a new program that works quite differently.

[keress]

How much editing has to be done varies widely author-to-author.  Editing content is frankly my favorite task.  I'm gratified to have published authors trusting me with that.  It sounds like you've worked with both.  I'm wary about my clients learning InCopy.  Some of them have trouble just uploading a .pdf to KDP.  Some, just logging in to KDP is a challenge.

My trial by fire with MSWord was trying to cobble together multiple chapters input by a number of people. There was a book they loved that was out-of-print, so they all volunteered to type in a chapter.  (They'd never heard of OCR.)  Far too late in the process, I discovered that one of them was typing in her chapters on a Windows XP using the first version of MSWord released in the Eighties. All kinds of things were malfunctioning.  LOL.  I thought it was Word's fault.  Rarely have I had to do as much troubleshooting as I did to tame that beast.  It wasn't until days into that task someone mentioned the XP.  

The other beeatch is understanding how section breaks work, and the highly un-intuitive procedure for getting them to work properly without shapeshifting every time you turn around.  All the while I'm going through all this learning curve I'm wondering if it would be a cleaner, more intuitive process with In Design. . .

[Randy Hagan]

Thank you. With the details you've provided, we can address your interests in more detail.

The big liability with MSWord for page production is that it doesn't define pages, per se. I mean, yes, words stop on one page and start again on the next, but that page break — and page count — can vary by the output device(s) used to crank out the book(s). That's the biggest area where InDesign will absolutely make your life easier.

Now I have my biases, so please take this into account. I do similar work to what you're doing on the print side for a custom publisher/vanity press imprint in South Florida. But I feel that InDesign's indexing and table of contents functions are far easier to master and apply than MSWord's similar capabilities. And if you get good at book templating (your print vendors may be helpful here) and filling them in, InDesign will definitely reduce the stress level compared to, uh, messing things up to make them work right in MSWord. If you get really good at developing long documentation skills with InDesign — I, like a number of other people here teach courses on InDesign, including long documentation courses — there are techniques and workflows with InDesign that will make book production a snap. If you choose to rely on someone else to teach you InDesign, be sure to get a syllabus of what they'll cover in training, and make sure that your trainer actually covers those syllabi to your satisfaction.

Don't give up on MSWord, though. It may be a pain to produce pages, but it's excellent at massaging and refining manuscript copy. If you can maintain the discipline to get the copy perfect within MSWord and then place it in your InDesign document(s) and build pages, you'll be miles ahead as you produce the books. The first one or two books you produce may be misery — that's why I recommend you build a couple of prototypes with materials you've already used to produce other books, off deadline, with InDesign before you start doing live jobs — but after you work the little bugs out of your personal workflow I do believe it will make print page production for your book easier and much less painful.

It ticks off real artists when I say this, but when you get things down solid it's like punching out Chevy fenders: a simple, repeatable system you can use and repeat to move a lot of production down the line.

I'd keep your current workflow for producing eBooks though. You've got a system down, and your current toolkit is much better than anything you'll get out of InDesign. I say this as an experienced end user, not as an authorized representative of Adobe Systems.

In short, I think InDesign could make your life easier if you're cranking out PoD/commercially printed books on a regular basis. If you have specific questions, feel free to correspond with me through private message on these forums. I'm not necessarily pitching you, and there may be other folks who can offer the help I can, but I've suffered your slings and arrows and I'm happy to help you climb the learning curve quickly.

It sounds like you've got an interesting niche. I like reading that kind of nonfiction. Good luck on your endeavors. I appreciate those who fight the Good Fight.

Randy

[barbara_a]

Word is a word processor; InDesign is a page layout application. You have ultimate control over design and layout with InDesign. 

You have a great background and experience with other applications, but there will still be a learning curve with InDesign.

When I want someone to review an InDesign document, I send them a PDF of the file. As Robert mentioned, InCopy is another option.

[keress]

Thanks for the response.

Have you ever used MSWord to prepare a manuscript?  It is a great deal more than a simple word processor.  As I've said, I've replicated first editions done by major publishers.  The only difference is that I did a much better job creating headers naming the subchapters we were in, than the first editor. 

Having to resort to pdf's is what I'm afraid of.  It will mean having to do the actual work of a word processor, transferring all their changes, bit by bit to the main document. I'll have flashbacks to my old day-job as a word processor for law firms.  What a torment.  I hope InCopy will be a reasonable alternative.  My clients are mostly IT-phobic seniors.  If there's a learning curve to InCopy all may be lost.  

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

I'm afraid there would be quite a steep one... 

Like others said - it's always best to have WORD document "finished" and ready to use - and only do minor typos. 

But... then it also depends on the contents - if it's just text - then not all is lost - as long as authors know how to use Styles and WILL use them instead of local formatting. 

[rob day]

Hi @keress , if you are happy with the relatively limited typographic capabilities of HTML and word processing, why change?

A InDesign Paragraph Style has 325 properties, so unless your training is in high end typography, you might not care about those added typographic subtleties. Also, it doesn’t look like your output is going to be to high quality offset printing, but that’s where you would have problems with Word—last I checked it has no color management. The learning curve would be the steepest on the prepress side.

[keress]

Yes, we're strictly talking about KDP.  Kindle Direct Publishing.  Print-on-demand paperbacks and eBooks.  Kindle ebooks are still pretty primitive.  I'm already doing overkill with the ePubs I'm doing that Kindle strips out.  If the PDF for the paperback looks good, that's how it will look when KDP digests it.  It does sound like InDesign is overkill for KDP.   I'm filling a void, making the KDP look 100% better than these authors would do on their own, producing a perfectly readable book that will have a chance of surviving for a new generation of readers.  Taking it any further wouldn't likely not even show in that product.

[Randy Hagan]

Not to jump in to a question you asked someone else, but if you're dealing with IT-phobic seniors, you don't want to be turning them from the MSWord/word processing model they already know to a copyediting front-end system like InCopy that they'll have to learn on the fly.

First, you/they will have to purchase, install and integrate your authors' computer systems to sync with your InCopy/InDesign setup. I can assure you that will near-universally entail going onsite and setting up their systems to match up with you. Plus the interface is significantly different than MSWord, and if they eventually climb up the learning curve to be able to use it, they'll be beefing with you about doing this the whole way.

Based on what you've shared here, I believe that InCopy would be a seriously wrong call for working with your clients. Especially if they are already pretty familiar with MSWord and you've got systems that work for co-ordinating with authors already. I would strongly recommend that you stick with MSWord if you're working with technology-averse authors that already know (roughly) how to use MSWord.

I believe you want to use MSWord for working with them on their manuscripts. Get the words right. Make all the edits, and fix all the typos. Once everybody is happy with the manuscript, and only after they've signed off on the copy being exactly the way they want it with no further changes, then you want to place the fully-approved, final copy into InDesign. You want to be completely through with the editing and proofing process before you lay out your book.

A PDF approval process shouldn't be too cumbersome if you're done with editing/revising copy. Ideally, your authors should only be approving the design layout of their print book, and perhaps a couple typos that slid through the review process and need one last fix before publication. Realistically, you may be editing little things like photo captions and such, but you're right in that your life would be a living Hell if you let them edit/revise their manuscripts after you lay out the book within InDesign.

So for your own best interest, and your sanity, don't let them do that.

Randy