How to assign master pages to certain pages and "lock" them so reflow doesn't move them

[mailib84410345]

I’ve searched the Adobe InDesign handbook and many forums to find out how to do this, but I haven’t seen a solution so far. It would be amazing if someone could help me.

I lay out my books so the chapter opener is always on an odd page by using “break to next odd page,” and then assign it a chapter opener (CO) master page with a Running Feet paragraph style for the page number. All other pages in the chapter are assigned to a text (T) master page with paragraph style Running Heads; blank pages are set to “none” master page.

During each round of edits, the smart flow moves everything a page or two up or down, and then I have to go through the whole book and manually re-assign the master pages so the running heads/feet/none match up. I’ve easily spent hours doing this, and/or researching to see if any solution exists.

I’ve tried putting chapters into sections and setting preferences to “smart reflow at end of section” and unchecked “limit to primary pages”, but that didn’t work. I unchecked “facing pages” which seemed to work for a minute, until I noticed that it had reversed the text box margins on the verso pages, and showed single pages instead of spreads in the Pages panel, which looked extremely scary and wrong.

What I’d like is for the chapter opener page to ALWAYS be tied to a CO master page, regardless of edits, and if possible, if the page before it is blank to be assigned “none”, but if any text reflows to that page, it gets assigned T.

Is that even possible? It would be a HUGE help if someone knows how to do this!

Thanks!

[TᴀW]

The best non-commercial-script workflow, in my opinion, is (1) to disable smart-text reflow. (2) Make sure that each chapter is a separate story. Chapters should not be threaded to each other (because of the master page issue).

Now you can apply your master page to chapter openings, and sanity is restored because they will always be applied to the chapter openings and not move around.

The disadvantage, of course, is that if you do need to add extra pages to the ends of chapters, the procedure has to be done manually, i.e., add as many blank pages as you think you'll need, then autoflow the text from the end of the chapter, then delete any spares.

That procedure takes a little time, admittedly, but it's still much easier than repeatedly going through the whole book and reapplying the correct master pages.

Having said that...

It sounds like you would really benefit from my commercial Mastermatic script: https://www.id-extras.com/products/mastermatic/

It does exactly what you ask, namely, allows you to link paragraph styles (and/or object styles) to specific master pages. Plus many other options. Basically, it allows you to correctly apply master (parent) pages to an entire document with a single click. It's quick and easy to set up, and a dream to use (and is in use by Macmillans, Penguin, Harper Collins, and many other publishers).

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Also, you could select the spread you want to "lock together" and deslect Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle under the Pages panel menu. 

[mailib84410345]

I just tried it. It didn't keep the spread assigned to the same parent page.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

InDesign simply does not have any integral feature to tie a specific content element (such as a chapter head) to a specific page layout (such as a Parent page with no header, a large top margin, etc.) It's best to develop your layout so that the content and styles do all you want to do on chapter starts and the like.

There are some structural workarounds, as already noted. But they are imperfect and bring other limitations with them. For me, it's usually essential to keep all content in a single linear flow and maximize the features of (mostly) Paragraph Styles to carry the layout regardless of how it reflows. (And even at that, a usual last step is to page through and make some specific Parent page assignments.)

The general idea of "fixed" page layouts has been on the wishlist since the beginning. I'm pretty sure nothing like it will come until/unless ID is revamped from the ground up.

[mailib84410345]

It's disappointing, but that's what I was afraid of. It seems to me that the capability to do it already exists within the program--pages can be automatically added/deleted, paragraph styles can reformat all text in the document by making small changes to the base style, and find/replace can find something and change it globally.  It's just a question of merging those three tasks together, right?

Perhaps I'll refocus this time and energy into learning GREP and writing a script for it.  Thanks anyway!

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

You'd think so, but my dim perspective acquired over years is that there is a huge divide in InDesign's functionality that separates "page layout" and "content management" at some very low level. That the two might need to work together, instead of being managed as wholly separate aspects, does not seem to have been in the original plan.

But unless you extensively build and rebuild and extend documents as part of your workflow, and can't stand it if a chapter head isn't on the right kind of base page (or have a boss who can't), or need to have a pixel-perfect doc (page flow and all) with every edit... it's not that hard or even that frequent a task to occasionally go through and change Parent page assignments. Should it be easier/integral? Absolutely. But it's not, or should not be, any great productivity hurdle.

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Adobe FrameMaker can apply master pages based on style usage all on its own.

Adobe InDesign needs an third-party script such as ID-Extras.com Mastermatic or In-Tools.com AutoFlow Pro.

(There may be others, but those are the two I'm familar with.)

For the most part, Adobe stopped adding long-document features back in CS3. They have been more focused on chasing "shiny things", such as Flash-based animation in CS5, EPub publishing, HTML output, and now getting into AI-assisted design. (Endnotes was the last major addition I can think of off the top of my head.) I wouldn't hold my breath for any major new long-doc features. 

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@mailib84410345

How about a Book option? 

Each Chapter in its own INDD file. 

If you need something more advanced than @TᴀW's solution - also not free - and you work on a PC - my ID-Tasker tool could do what you are looking for - and a lot more.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Both this and the use of Stories seems to me to be only a partial solution: it would preserve the match of the first page (content/Chapter Heading and layout/Parent Page) but not much else. Which, for something structured like a novel, with little or no "fancy" formatting past each chapter start, would work fine. But if, say, halfway through there's a page needing an assigned Parent page to hold an image or a table or a blank-verso... it would still be subject to reflow problems.

Short of a major addition to ID, scripts and/or automation would seem to be the only solution other than my usual one — a few minutes of wetware application, as a cleanup step or a final prep for export/printing.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

Images can always be InLine. 

Then ParaStyle(s) can control start of the page, etc.

[mailib84410345]

My images are in-line and paragraph styled, and the chapter head/numbers are styled. What I'm looking for is a way to format a page to keep the same master page assignment, even after adding or removing text around it.

[mailib84410345]

I did try that. The frustration of having to open 20+ chapters and flip back and forth through them was worse than scrolling through the pages panel looking for chapter heads. I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that in the list of "things tried".

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Books are very much a double-edged sword. 🙂

To circle back to a solution, can you adjust your format so that chapter headings are entirely managed by styles? I do that almost universally in my projects, leaving a Book structure only for those where chapters need to be managed independently.

[mailib84410345]

They are. Every word in the book is assigned a paragraph/character style. Even when laying out the word docs at the onset, I break new chapters to odd pages, so I never have to worry about manually shifting them. It seems that this is the one thing that can't be controlled, which is kinda crazy, since every other potion of a document can be formatted to run automatically (and by three different methods) using variables, styles, or myriad object style options—it even updates page numbers in the TOC!. I guess this one just slipped through the cracks.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Again, I think the original design architecture saw them as separate processes. Which is a guess and in no way points to a solution. I'd be interested to see how the plugins for this actually work (connecting a designated style to a reach-over for a different Parent page.) I'd bet it's... not using any low-level functionality, but simply automating what a hoo-man would do.

[mailib84410345]

You're probably right. It's something I can live with. But even after years of using InDesign, I still stumble on little secret hidden treasures that automate something I'd been doing manually. I thought I'd toss a ball out on the forum and see if someone knew an obscure trick.

Thanks anyway, everyone!

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

I did try that. The frustration of having to open 20+ chapters and flip back and forth through them was worse than scrolling through the pages panel looking for chapter heads. I'm sorry, I should have mentioned that in the list of "things tried".

By @mailib84410345

I'm not sure of your workflow, but I would have to disagree on this statement on its face. 

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Eh, I find Books to be a PITA and avoid the method whenever possible. I see too many novice/inexperienced types set up fairly simple projects around a Book structure because they've gotten the idea it's necessary or an advantage. I think it's a plus ONLY when chapters need to be managed as individual units (for update, editing, review, shuffled order, etc.) or very large content needs to be divided for better file management.

On most projects that don't fall into either of those categories, I'd rather open and manage one file than via the clunky and annoying Book pane and having to open dozens of files (or repeatedly find the file I need isn't opened yet).

But different strokes and all.