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Images with ICC convert to DeviceCMYK

Forum|Forum|4 years ago
October 26, 2021
2 replies
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I exported a PDF with CMYK images (Euroscale Coated v2) with the High Quality Print preset (No color conversion, Include Tagged Source Profiles).

But Output Preview>Object Inspector in Acrobat indentifies these images as DeviceCMYK. I also inspected the document with the Pitstop plugin and it sees no ICC profiles, as if they were striped.

Then I checked Image Properties (by right clicking the images in Acrobat) and under Advanced>Photoshop Properties it says: ICCProfile Euroscale Coated v2.

Then I opened some of the images from the PDF for external editing in Photoshop and there it says: Euroscale Coated v2.

So why is this happening and what can be the consequences if this is sent to print?

Visually (on the screen), the colors in the PDF look right.

Thanks.

Import and export

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Correct answer rob day

@rob day, thank you for your answer, very informative as always, but I think that some things here are not good.

If the settings read "Include Tagged Source Profiles", I naively expected that this will actually include them.

I just tried to make a tidy document where things are clearly defined, like: this object is "John" and that object is "Paul". But I got an undefined situation.

I don't know if they specifically wanted a document like this. They said 'Euroscale' and that's what I expected to get in the end, not this.

If the settings read "Include Tagged Source Profiles", I naively expected that this will actually include them.

The setting’s full meaning is really Only Include Tagged Source Profiles that Conflict with the Document’s CMYK Profile, but that would obviously be a problem in the UI.

I just tried to make a tidy document where things are clearly defined, like: this object is "John" and that object is "Paul". But I got an undefined situation.

Right, the PDF/X standards solve that problem—[High Quality Print] is an outdated preset. The PDF/X Output Intent clarifies what’s meant by DeviceCMYK.

Also, how are you calibrating and profiling your monitor? The display of profiled CMYK is a managed conversion from CMYK to Lab to your monitor profile, so the accuracy of the CMYK display depends on both the system’s monitor profile and the CMYK profile assignment.

Willi Adelberger

Community Expert

To avoid these problems, you should place RGB images and convert upon PDF export.

rob day

Community Expert

When you select the image in Indesign and check the Link Info panel what profile is listed?

S

Stavre0D4CAuthor

Known Participant

When you select the image in Indesign and check the Link Info panel what profile is listed?

It says: Document CMYK.

Plz note that if I export with "Include all profiles", the ICC profiles are included in the PDF. But the "Include Tagged Source Profiles" does not include them.

If it's important, my color settings (Edit>Color Settings) currently are:

RGB: sRGB

CMYK: Euroscale Coated v2

RGB: Preserve embedded profiles

CMYK: Preserve numbers (ignore linked profiles)

Under Edit>Assign profiles is the same: sRGB and Euroscale Coated v2.

Thanks.

rob day

Community Expert

Thank you very much, @rob day, I followed your advices and I did this experiment:

- Color Settings: CMYK:Preserve embeded profiles
- Profile mismatch: Ask when opening
- When opening, in the prompt I choosed "Adjust the doc to match current settings"
- Assign profiles: Euroscale and sRGB
- The link panel began to correctly show the ICC profiles

- The document was saved and closed

Later I opened it again and I exported a test page with CMYK (Euroscale) content on it with the High Quality Print Preset (default settings: No Color Conversion, Include Tagged Source Profiles).

The result is again: DeviceCMYK. No ICC profiles were attached. The colors look fine, but maybe only for my untrained eye.

I repeated the same experiment with the book cover file. Again, HQ Print Preset (No Color Conversion, Include Tagged Source Profiles). And again, I got DeviceCMYK with no profiles attached and the color in Acrobat is incorrect. Then I exported with "Include All Profiles" and the difference between the two files is obvious.

In short, I expected ID to include the profiles and not to convert anything, but I got something else. Maybe it's good, maybe it's not. I already sent the book (the inner pages) for printing. Maybe the results will not be bad, but this is very confusing and worrying, esp for non-experts like me.

Also, the appearance of DeviceCMYK in Acrobat depends on your Acrobat Color Management Preferences Working CMYK space or, in AcrobatPro the Simulation Profile you choose in Output Preview. Make sure the Simulation Profile is set to Euroscale Document CMYK space:

In Acrobat, under Edit>Preferences>General>Color Management, I have set Euroscale CMYK long before this discussion. It doesn't help.

When I normally open the two different versions ("Include Tagged Source Profiles" vs "Include All Profiles"), there's an obvious difference in the colors between them.

However, in Print Production>Output Preview with Euroscale simulation, the image with the wrong colors looks like the correct image or at least it seems so. It gets the "warmth" that it lacks in normal view.

I have no clue what they will do at the printshop and whether they really needed the ICC profiles. I just wanted to have a tidy made document, where things are clearly defined. I didn't know that ID will not actually attach the profiles. This is not ok in my humble, non-expert opinion.

If you include all profiles and the printer outputs to some other conflicting CMYK destination you could have problems with black text—unless they protect black it will get converted to 4-color.

Thank you for this warning and for all the help as well.

You would be better off leaving your images as profiled RGB, which would avoid the extra CMYK-to-CMYK conversion at output.

In this particular case I was asked to place CMYK images and export with the HQ Print preset (unmodified, so no color conversion), so I didn't want to experiment.

In this particular case I was asked to place CMYK images and export with the HQ Print preset (unmodified, so no color conversion), so I didn't want to experiment.

Right, the printer wants DeviceCMYK—they are trying to avoid accidental CMYK-to-CMYK conversions. All of the PDF/X standards work the same way—all Document CMYK color exports as DeviceCMYK with the added benefit of the Output Intent Profile, which by default is the Simulation profile.

If I include all profiles Acrobat’s Object Inspector shows the embedded profile. Here the fill value with no conversion is 0|0|0|100:

The Separations Preview confirms the black only fill as long as the Simulation Profile is Euroscale:

If the output is to some other CMYK profile the output CMYK values will be converted—for example Coated FOGRA39

This would be a much bigger problem on press than the subtle color differences between Euroscale and FOGRA39

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