• Global community
    • Language:
      • Deutsch
      • English
      • Español
      • Français
      • Português
  • 日本語コミュニティ
    Dedicated community for Japanese speakers
  • 한국 커뮤니티
    Dedicated community for Korean speakers
Exit Search
0

Is my document actually centered for proper folding ?

Participant ,
Dec 30, 2018 Dec 30, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hello all,

So I've got a layout I made for a printed pamphlet. It's an A5 pamphlet, printed on A4 which is folded.

Below is an export with the fold & crop marks. Things seem correct.

ACES_programme_printemps 2019v14_RECTO.jpg

I got the proof print to check things are good before production. I realize that when folding the sheet, the print is not exactly centered.

The back page (on the left) creeps over the fold on the 1st page (right).

When I check the rulers the InDesign document, I do notice something, however.

Screen Shot 2018-12-30 at 19.00.59.jpg

On the left side I've got 15cm + 7mm

On the right side, there is 15cm + 3mm

You can see that with the black arrows.

That means that the right and left page don't have the same width.

I'm confused...

Can someone shed some light?

Views

1.9K

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines

correct answers 1 Correct answer

Community Expert , Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

But the spreads are still not aligned to the spine

It really shouldn't be necessary for you to construct printer spreads in the page layout. Any competent printer would be able to impose your reader pages at output, and shouldn't be asking you to do it.

So rather than fighting InDesign, you can just layout and export reader pages, and let the printer setup the press sheet as printer spreads when they make plates.

Screen Shot 28.png

Votes

Translate

Translate
Community Expert ,
Dec 30, 2018 Dec 30, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Why not put a guide in at 148mm (not including bleed) and align your images to it.

Also, your crop marks should not overlap on to the image – how to offset them was explained to you in your previous post.

If you're printing to your own desk-top printer it will need to be able to print a larger sheet than A4, to allow for bleed. And you may have problems registering the back up duplex printing on an office printer.

Screenshot 2018-12-30 at 18.50.51.png

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Dec 31, 2018 Dec 31, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hello Derek,

Thanks for your suggestions but there are a few things I don't understand.

Before I go into the details, I'd like to say that the InDesign document I used, is from a pamphlet I designed earlier this year which I got printed at the same printing company in 300 copies. There was no issue regarding bleeds and folds. So when designing the 2019 version I started working from a copy of my previous Indesign project so start on good grounds.

Regarding the guide at 148mm. I don't understand why I would align my pictures to the corner with a guide. Can't I trust the Indesign document set up to be correct regarding document size and center and place my images accordingly on the A5 page ??

Regarding crop marks. Before going into the details, I'd like to underline that what the printing company is asking to deliver as a PDF document is : two different PDF documents, one for one side of the A4 sheet (with page 4 and 1) and one PDF for the other side of the sheet with page 2 and 3. I believe that's a pretty standard way in the printing industry, hens the spread system in Indesign.

I went back to your previous comments on my other posts, that's what you wrote:

Just to add to Bob's suggestion – that's two A4 landscape pages (pages 4 and 1 for one side and pages 2 and 3 for the other) with 3mm bleed on each edge. Untick Facing pages, and increase the margins to suit the design you've shown.

      Place your images in RGB color mode and export your document to PDF, using the InDesign Preset PDF/X-4 (unless you've been given a different spec by your printer), tick Crop Marks and tick Use Document Bleed Settings, both found under the Marks and Bleeds tab in the Export Adobe PDF dialogue box"

I currently got 5mm bleed on each edge. That's what the printing company is asking me.

I did have the *Facing pages ticked" on and I just unticked that but I didn't see any changes in my Indesign document, neither on the page window or the artwork itself. But again, here I don't understand why I would untick that if the aim is to output two sheets with facing pages... as mentioned above and why I insist using spreads and not individual pages.

For the margins. Are you saying margins to prevent the text from being to close to the edge? Or are you talking about other margins ?

Then you say that I place my images in RGB color. Again, here it doesn't make any senses to work in RGB color if I'm designing for CMYK printing. My images are an illustrator document that has been set up in CMYK as well. In any case, RGB and CMYK color mode should not be impacting bleeds and crop marks, would it ??

When I exported I did tick "Crop Marks" and "Use Document Bleeds Settings".

I just re-exported now with following your indications to check what results I would get. Below is the first page.

There are two clear problems.

1. I'm only getting separate pages and not spreads which is what I need to deliver to the printing company.

2. As you can see on the left, page 1 is bleeding over page 4...

It seems to me that my way of exporting was closer to an actual working PDF.

I'm sorry to say but the crop marks overlapping in my previous export is less of an issue that the current what I get when following your guideline.

ACES_programme_printemps 2019v15.jpg

I'm open to trying things out but I wanted to explain with all the above that what you are suggesting is just not working.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 31, 2018 Dec 31, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

You can either set this 4 page leaflet up as four A5 upright pages or two A4 landscape pages – the choice is yours.

Regarding why 148mm, that's half of A4 landscape (A5).

You don't need to bother with margins with the design you have shown if it confuses you.

When you export from RGB using PDF/X-4 it converts the document to CMYK (this is the correct way to do the conversion).

Much of what you ask about was dealt with when you posted these questions a week or two ago.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 31, 2018 Dec 31, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

When you export from RGB using PDF/X-4 it converts the document to CMYK (this is the correct way to do the conversion).

Hi Derek, the default PDF/X-4 preset does not convert RGB color to CMYK—Alexandre would have to explicitly set the Output tab to Convert to Destination and choose a CMYK Destination profile. That might be important in this case because some of the document swatches are RGB.

Screen Shot 11.png

The X-4 preset would have to be modified to Destination Document CMYK if the printer wants all CMYK:

Screen Shot 12.png

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 31, 2018 Dec 31, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

two different PDF documents, one for one side of the A4 sheet (with page 4 and 1) and one PDF for the other side of the sheet with page 2 and 3. I believe that's a pretty standard way in the printing industry, hens the spread system in Indesign.

I think what's causing some of your problems is you are handling the page imposition in the page layout—a p4-p1 printer spread backing up to a p2-p3 spread. That isn't a difficult task if there are only 4 pages, but it is not necessarily the norm.

InDesign's facing pages assumes you are laying out reader spreads and not printer spreads. When the printer handles imposition they would take your page 1 and page 4 and impose them on the printing plates in the correct order, with page 4 on the left, page 1 on the right, and removing any inside bleeds.

If you are laying out printer spreads, the starting Document Setup can be this, which will setup two spreads aligned to the spine. The Start Page needs to be 2 with facing pages checked:

Screen Shot 14.png

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 30, 2018 Dec 30, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Can you share the ID document via Dropbox or your CC account?

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Dec 31, 2018 Dec 31, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hello Rob,

Thanks for offering your help.

I sent you a PM with a CC link to the file.

Alexandre

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Dec 31, 2018 Dec 31, 2018

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

with a CC link to the file:

Adobe Creative Cloud

I don't see a problem—the trimmed pages are equal widths.

However, you haven't extended the artwork on the left page completely to the bleed, so if you are trying to fold or measure a proof that includes the bleed the pages would be uneven.

It doesn't seem likely that will be a problem with a 4 page document—the printer should be able to hit the trim mark when they trim, but you might want to note that to the printer:

Screen Shot 8.png

Also, you've set the cover and back cover pages up as a gatefold—both pages are to the right of the spine. I don't think that is a problem in this case, but you could have set the front and back cover spread pages so the fold is on the spine.

Select all the pages in the Pages panel and uncheck Allow Selected Spreads to Shuffle and Allow Document Pages to Shuffle from the panel flyout. Then in the panel you can move the spread to the spine:

Screen Shot 10.png

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hey Rob,

Thanks for the comments.

So I opened my file today and I can see that a few of your suggestions are on the document.

It's possible when I was doing the changes to try Derek's method, it corrected some of the weirdness.

I've set up my ruler to be per page and start on the left.

Indeed, I can see that the pages are trimmed at equal width.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.06.52.jpg

Also, my pages are no more set up as a gatefold but are correctly aligned to the spine.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.21.05.jpg

Regarding the artworks alignment on the left. The blue line you see and show in the screenshot is not the bleed end line. It is the artwork box line.

I can actually extend that further out and it won't affect the artwork size.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.25.28.jpg

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.25.33.jpg

I think I did that as a "just to be safe" thing...

But I can definitely have the box end at the bleed mark.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.25.38.jpg

Regarding reader spreads and printer spreads, I didn't know about the differences. Thanks for point that out.

I'm very sure that with the printing company I'm working with (rather cheaper online service), I should be sending them a printer-ready PDF as much as possible.

Currently, this is my document set up.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.29.05.jpg

I can see in your example, that you have Start Page No 2 and Facing Pages ticked on.

Why would I start at page 2 ?

I tried ticking "Facing Pages", this is what I get.

The spreads go in gatefold and are not aligned to the spine anymore.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.36.14.jpg

So I tried doing your suggestion: "Select all the pages in the Pages panel and uncheck Allow Selected Spreads to Shuffle and Allow Document Pages to Shuffle from the panel flyout. Then in the panel you can move the spread to the spine:"

It doesn't work.

Here is my page panel settings. I've unchecked "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" and "Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle".

Yet I can't align the spreads to the spine. I can move pages' order, but that gate fold structure stays the same.

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.38.30.jpg

Regarding RGB and CMYK.

I didn't understand the full complexity of the issue. What I can say is that when I export I select.

Color Conversion: Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)

Destination: Document CMYK - Coated FOGRA 39.

Should I be worrying about something regarding color ?

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 11.44.12.jpg

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Regarding the page positioning, double click on the triangle above page 1 and change the number to 4. Now double click on the second page (front cover) and choose Numbering and Section Options from the Pages panel menu and change that page number to 1. That should get your pages in order. Again, the reason for jumping through these hoops is that InDesign want to arrange your pages in Reader's Spreads and you've built your document in Printer's Spreads. So you have to "trick" InDesign so that it understands your Printer's Spread arrangement. I think If you export the PDF using the Document Bleed settings, you should be in good shape.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hey Chad,

Thanks for the tips.

I was able to change the page numbers. But the spreads are still not aligned to the spine

Screen Shot 2019-01-02 at 14.21.22.jpg

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

But the spreads are still not aligned to the spine

It really shouldn't be necessary for you to construct printer spreads in the page layout. Any competent printer would be able to impose your reader pages at output, and shouldn't be asking you to do it.

So rather than fighting InDesign, you can just layout and export reader pages, and let the printer setup the press sheet as printer spreads when they make plates.

Screen Shot 28.png

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

It doesn't work.

Here is my page panel settings. I've unchecked "Allow Document Pages to Shuffle" and "Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle".

Yet I can't align the spreads to the spine. I can move pages' order, but that gate fold structure stays the same.

There isn't anything wrong with the document you sent—the page trim dimensions match.

To get the fold on the spine you have to watch the Pages panel's drag icon. here I'm dragging page 1 until I see a bar with a left pointing arrow:

drag.png

Screen Shot 27.png

Why would I start at page 2 ?

See Chad's post. Also, the page numbering doesn't matter when you are laying out printer spreads. You wouldn't be able to use an auto numbering Current Page Number glyph because your first spread is actually 4-1 and not 1-2

Regarding RGB and CMYK.

I didn't understand the full complexity of the issue. What I can say is that when I export I select.

That shouldn't be a problem.

You are using the PDF/X-1a preset which flattens transparency, and flattened transparency can produce "stitching" artifacts at lower resolutions. If there's a problem it would show up in the printed proof. Your 2-3 spread has transparent objects.

You are using RGB colors. So if you were to use the PDF/X-4 preset as Derek suggested (which would not flatten transparency), and the printer is requiring all CMYK, the Output tab has to be set to Document CMYK.

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Participant ,
Jan 02, 2019 Jan 02, 2019

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hey Rob,

Ahh, ok I managed to do the align the spreads. I hadn't realized earlier I could grab page 1. I was trying to grab page 2 and move the entire spread left...

Regarding transparency and PDF/X-1a and transparency. I see exactly what you mean. I had that exact issue the last year where the transparency did not show up in the printed proof. The printing company requires PDX/X-1a so to go around the issue, I use 100 % opacity of those elements but I reduce their opacity previously in a separate Illustrator document. It works perfectly and the desired effect is achieved on the printed proof.

Thanks !

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Feb 21, 2023 Feb 21, 2023

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

LATEST

When I set up spreads like this, I turn the bleed off on the adjoining edges.   When I set my bleed for those pages I untick the 'link' and set each edge individually, making the joined edges 0.  This prevents on page bleeding into another, and puts the fold right where I want it.     

Votes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines