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Y.v.e.s
Y.v.e.s
Participant
December 17, 2020
Answered

Is there a way to use tables for page layout and make them accessible

  • December 17, 2020
  • 3 replies
  • 3424 views

We have a team of document designers who say that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables. See attachement for a simple example. They also use table for more complex layout.

Well, tables in that regards are not accessible because they anounce a data grid when there is no such data in it.

Is there a way to tag that table as role='presentation' like with HTML?

Either in inDesign or in Acdobate DC Pro? 

Thanks, Yves

 

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This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer Bevi Chagnon @ PubCom

No, tables can't be used for layout. Per all of the accessibility standards (WCAG, PDF/UA, EPUB), tables can contain only material that makes sense to be in a matrix of columns and rows, like a spreadsheet.

 

And no, there isn't a way to designate the table element as presentation, not as structure, and retain the content in the cells.

 

But I'm really concerned by this statement:

"We have a team of document designers who say that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables."

 

Yeowza! That's one of the most outrageous statements I've seen. This former professor of graphic design & digital media and award-winning commercial magazine art director says that is pure bunk. (I'm not being as polite as Barb!)

 

Thanks, Barb, for demonstrating a better way to create their design!

 

Suggestion: before attempting to make an accessible PDF from InDesign, have your design team brush up their knowledge of how to use InDesign correctly, to maximize their creative designs as well as minimize their time/effort. Good places to learn:

 

Then grab accessibility courses from:

 

Regardless of which program someone uses -- Word, InDesign, Powerpoint, etc.  -- they must know how to use it correctly in order to create an accessible PDF from it.

 

That's just the way it is! Master your software tools.

 

3 replies

Bevi Chagnon @ PubCom
Bevi Chagnon @ PubComCorrect answer
Participating Frequently
December 17, 2020

No, tables can't be used for layout. Per all of the accessibility standards (WCAG, PDF/UA, EPUB), tables can contain only material that makes sense to be in a matrix of columns and rows, like a spreadsheet.

 

And no, there isn't a way to designate the table element as presentation, not as structure, and retain the content in the cells.

 

But I'm really concerned by this statement:

"We have a team of document designers who say that the only easy way to layout text in a sleek page design is to use tables."

 

Yeowza! That's one of the most outrageous statements I've seen. This former professor of graphic design & digital media and award-winning commercial magazine art director says that is pure bunk. (I'm not being as polite as Barb!)

 

Thanks, Barb, for demonstrating a better way to create their design!

 

Suggestion: before attempting to make an accessible PDF from InDesign, have your design team brush up their knowledge of how to use InDesign correctly, to maximize their creative designs as well as minimize their time/effort. Good places to learn:

 

Then grab accessibility courses from:

 

Regardless of which program someone uses -- Word, InDesign, Powerpoint, etc.  -- they must know how to use it correctly in order to create an accessible PDF from it.

 

That's just the way it is! Master your software tools.

 

    maxwithdax
    Community Expert
    maxwithdaxCommunity Expert
    Community Expert
    August 24, 2023

    Bevi, 

    While I agree that layout tables should be avoided, I have to clarify something you said "Per all of the accessibility standards (WCAG, PDF/UA, EPUB), tables can contain only material that makes sense to be in a matrix of columns and rows, like a spreadsheet."

     

    You are mistaken.... https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/F49.html

     

    "Although WCAG 2 does not prohibit the use of layout tables, CSS-based layouts are recommended in order to retain the defined semantic meaning of the HTML table elements and to conform to the coding practice of separating presentation from content. If a layout table is used, however, it is important that the content make sense when linearized."


    In @Y.v.e.s case, the content cannot be read out of sequence so therefore would be logical in its current state. That said... I would definitely take the moment to linearize that table and pull the content out of the Table structure. Not to mention that it is just not semantic to have that content in a table. But telling people it is against WCAG is not the truth.

     

    Respectfully, 

    Dax

     

     

      deborahjb1
      deborahjb1
      Participating Frequently
      September 15, 2023

      It's good to know you can linearize layout, or presentation, tables, but then some content would be read strangely. I have a table that creates a checklist so now it reads: X Name1  Name2  Name3  X Name4. It's an attendance checklist that wasn't created with a standard list or checklist format. The context is: In attendance: Name1, Name4; Not in attendance: Name2, Name3. Just wondering what is the better way to format that. See the image below for an example. The title is not part of the table. 

      jmlevy
      Community Expert
      jmlevyCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      December 17, 2020

      Comme Barb, je ne suis pas un expert en accessibilité (certainement encore moins qu'elle) et encore moins en HTML, mais je suis certain d'une chose : cette page peut être construite autrement qu'avec un tableau.

      (Ou alors, je n'ai pas compris la question…)

        Barb Binder
        Community Expert
        Barb BinderCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        December 17, 2020

        Hi @Y.v.e.s:

         

        I'm not an accessibility expert (but @Bevi Chagnon - PubCom.com is, so let's see if she has time to stop in and comment).

         

        However, I was able to build that layout using paragraph styles—no table. It needs refining, but that is the basic look. If that is intriguing, have your designers take a look a paragraph borders, shading and rules. 

         

        ~Barb 

         

        ~Barb at Rocky Mountain Training
          Y.v.e.s
          Y.v.e.sAuthor
          Participant
          December 17, 2020

          Thanks a lot Barb. We will look at this approach. Looks promising.

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