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Last lines of text in column jumps to next column

Community Beginner ,
Aug 10, 2023 Aug 10, 2023

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Not sure why this is happening but I can't seem to keep the last line of text at the end of a column from jumping to the next column (See pic 01). Only after expanding the text box a lot (2 lines beyond the required length) does the line from the next column come back. (See pic 02).

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correct answers 4 Correct answers

Community Expert , Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

Well, I was wrong. It is a keep option setting. Change the Keep with next 2 lines to 0 in your style definition: Keep option next 2 lines.png

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Community Expert , Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

The misleading checkbox for Keep With Previous strikes again... 

 

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Community Expert , Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

The Keep With Previous checkbox doesn't affect Keep With Next - it's just a poor UI design. 

 

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Community Expert , Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

Gentlemen....

 

Let's do some good here by explaining that Keep With Next (x) lines is a separate function from those keep (x) lines together functions. The latter are used to prevent single lines from stasrting or ending a column, while Keep With Next is used to keep headings with the following content to which they refer or to keep a cluster of paragraphs bunched together, and has pretty much no other useful purpose.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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And I may add, teach them how to manually fix things when "automatic" features screw their jobs up, thank you very much.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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??? At which point it wasn't working as intended ???

 

User left "2" - misled by the poor UI design - and InDesign done as requested - how is it screwed up???

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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quote

I've been training people how to use that feature for the last 24 years.


By @Randy Hagan

 

And? 

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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Code drones think only programming is the cure for everything.

 

See? I can be personally insulting too. Smugness doesn't become you.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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And you've missed again - when / where do I say that programming is cure for everything?? 

 

I'm always more than happy to be proven wrong. 

 

And at which point I've insulted you? 

By questioning your knowledge - when you are clearly wrong? 

Then maybe you should educate yourself and stop giving wrong advice... 

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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Gentlemen....

 

Let's do some good here by explaining that Keep With Next (x) lines is a separate function from those keep (x) lines together functions. The latter are used to prevent single lines from stasrting or ending a column, while Keep With Next is used to keep headings with the following content to which they refer or to keep a cluster of paragraphs bunched together, and has pretty much no other useful purpose.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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Exactly. 

 

My point was, that no flirting with widows would "fix" the problem - as it wasn't there because of them in the first place.

 

InDesign was doing exactly as instructed. 

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2023 Aug 14, 2023

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I'm afraid I have to disagree with you here, Randy. As long as there is an inapproriate Keep with Next option active no amount of copy fitting will solve the problem correctly. As you've sort of pointed out in your rant about global fixes, this is a situation where fixing the problem in this spot will probably lead to a reflow where the issue will crop up again someplace else and you'll be chasing these forever with local copy fitting. Making a global style change is also going to cause a copy reflow, and indeed may uncover some other error, but at least it's predictable and won't perpetuate elsewhere a problem caused by what was essentially an error to begin with. I would liken this to correcting something like the incorrect global application of No Break to turn off hyphenation or the incorrect global application of All Caps.

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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OMG, yes I was misled. It is exactly as you've said,  I thought Keep With previous controls Keeps with Next XX lines. Thanks so much!

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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You are not the first and probably not the last person - so don't worry. 

 

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Community Beginner ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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Thanks for your replies so far! Not sure what the issue is but I've attached my indesign file with the text issue. Perhaps you can take a look.. 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 13, 2023 Aug 13, 2023

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First, I owe an apology to everyone here. I let a personal insult get the best of me, and I shouldn't have done that. I let it make me angry and cloud my judgement, and I diverted myself from helping someone asking for assistance here.

 

I let my emotions get the best of me, and for that I'm truly sorry. I've calmed down now, and want to get back to addressing the original point.

 

Nonetheless, I believe the idea that flipping a global switch to "automatically" fix any problem is fraught with peril. Especially when it comes to long documentation, and absolutely when it's done after documentation is already laid out. Because changing global parameters may fix the problem in front of you, but in return it changes the rules throughout your entire InDesign document. Way too often, that creates multiple issues elsewhere in your completed document. Fixing one problem by changing global settings is a false economy, because very often it creates multiple problems after you apply The Magic Fix.

 

Code warriors may tell you this is a hypothetical. But anybody who does this work for a living has suffered repeatedly at the hands of such a gamble. Graphic design veterans will tell you that all too often global changes in completed documents cause multiple problems that now have to, as was derided by folks telling you flipping a global switch will magically fix all that ails you, result in now having to manually fix multiple problems. Because, I want to emphasize, that "automatic" global change will stuff new problems into your completed InDesign document. Exactly because, as technicians arguing here point out, those changes are made everywhere in your document.

 

Now again, I've got to admit, this is a hypothetical. Maybe nothing bad will happen. Maybe.

 

But hoping for that is just like playing dice in Las Vegas and betting everything that you're going to hit double sixes. There's a chance you may get lucky, sure. But the odds are 35 to one against you. And every other possibility is the wrong one.

 

This may seem primitive to some, but I'd rather fix one problem manually than bet some Magic Global Fix will eliminate one problem and not "automatically" introduce multiple new ones throughout my documentation. Which, by the way, will still demand manual fixes to make things right once again. Condensing the type slightly to get rid of the widow, or expanding it slightly to completely fill the column and place the last two lines of the paragraph into the next column, is easy to do. Especially with a paragraph where type is set loosely in a rag right/left align paragraph.

 

You'd only have to do it once. Because the specific issue will be fixed without applying global changes throughout your entire InDesign document.

 

Computers do perfect things perfectly well. To do things imperfectly, so things are done right in the end product, you've still got to rely on operator skills. Some folks may consider that unenlightened. I believe that's their folly. And if I'm being blunt about it, my job security.

 

Again, I apologize for losing my temper today. But I will never change my mind on this: changing global settings on completed InDesign documents is perilous. If nothing else, please take that to heart. Because I can guarantee you that it'll save you tons of heartache further down the line.

 

Randy Hagan

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2023 Aug 14, 2023

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And you still don't get it...  

 

When I've suggested one of use may not entirely know how Keep works - I was just asking for an argument where I was wrong - as you were too pushy that you are right. Then you've tried to win the argument by mentioning your 24 years teaching career. And still kept insisting, that everything is perfectly fine and it's InDesign's fault and things should be "corrected" locally. 

 

And you are still insisting that introducing A LOT of manual overrides is a good thing - it's as bad as it can be. 

 

If something has been set wrong and even if it would take time and require fixing the whole document - it has to be done ASAP. Otherwise, it will become even bigger problem later.

 

Let's say you'll give this document to someone else - who will discover this wrong Keep setting - get to the same conclusion as the rest of us here - and set it right - the whole document will shift... 

 

Or if the file get corrupted and IDMLing have to be done - and as a result all your local overrides get wiped out... 

 

Or it will be back from the author with some changes - then you'll have to do your local re-formatting all over again... 

 

Or font needs to be changed, or PointSize changes, or one of the Headers made bigger or smaller or thinner or thicker, etc. etc. 

 

When style is set right - InDesign will take care of everything and 90% or more will be as it should - you'll have to do only a few tweaks - with a lot of local formatting - you are dead in the water. 

 

Doing things right is more important than doing them "sort of okay" in order to save some time.

 

You have no idea about my experience - so really, when you are in a hole - stop digging... 

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2023 Aug 14, 2023

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That's OK. I'll just keep producing books for publishers who are happy with my work and keep making money.

 

You have fun

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Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2023 Aug 14, 2023

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You can do whatever you want with your files - if you prefer to waste time on unnecessary things - it's your time and money - but please don't share this as a right way to work in the InDesign.

 

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Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2023 Aug 14, 2023

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 or to keep a cluster of paragraphs bunched together

 

Not quite: the scope of 'Keep with next n lines' is the following paragraph only. If you have 10 consecutive single-line paragraphs and set Keep with next 5 on the paragraph preceding those 10 paragraphs, the Keep targets only the next (single-line) paragraph. Not the next 5 single-line paragraphs. Another confusing aspect of the dialog.

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Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2023 Aug 14, 2023

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That's correct. I was thinking in terms of a string of paragraphs (such as a list) that share the Keep with Next attribute. Very limited use case.

As for the argument about global vs. local fixes, my position is that global errors need global correction. Islated localized issues caused by an otherwise good global setting (read style) may be fixed by a local override if they apprear only once or possibly twice, but if they happen a lot there's a problem with the style and another one should be defined, and applied, for those cases. I would distinguish this from copy fitting.

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