Margins and Columns VS Document Properties...

[hughc46560181]

I've inherited an InDesign document with Margins and Columns set up. I prefer to work with Guides set up on a series of master pages, not Margins and Coumns. So I want to 'deactivate' Margins and Columns in this document. But I can't find a way to do this. Is there a way??

More thoughts on this ~

As I understand it, once Margins and Columns has been 'activated' in an InDesign doc, this overrides values for margins entered in Document Setup, Document Properties and Adjust Layout. I can still edit values for margins in all of these other places, but these changes have no effect on the document or individual pages. If Margins and Columns needs to work this way - i.e. to override all the other ways to edit margins - I think the other methods for editing margins should be 'locked' and greyed out when Margins and Columns is activated, with a message on mouse click or hover saying something like 'Margins and Columns is activated and is now the only way to edit margins in this document'.

And - if there isn't one - there should be a way to deactivate Margins and Columns.

[Eugene Tyson]

Select the Parent Page and go to Layout>Margins and Columns

Change it there

If it doesn't change on all pages

Then select all the pages in the Pages panel - and apply the Parent Page

OR - if you don't want to 

You can select all the pages and go to 
Layout>Margins and Columns and make the change.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Well, we all have our work methods, and not all documents necessarily need a margins-and-columns structure, but this feature is pretty much the #2 bedrock feature (after Page size) in ID and most layout programs for a reason. But no, there is no method of "deactivating" the feature/concept, not as such.

Assuming you have enough overall experience to ask this and make good use of the alternate approach, I'd just point out that setting your Parent Page to zero margins, one column, no primary text frame essentially removes the idea of margins and columns from the layout model.

[Mike-Witherell]

You can set the Margins to 0 and the Columns to 1. Done that way, you will not see the Margins and Columns. But these two things, Margins and Columns, are fundamental to the use of InDesign (this isn't Illustrator!). Why not embrace them? It opens up the cleverness of other features when done the right way.

[hughc46560181]

But these two things, Margins and Columns, open up the cleverness of other features when done the right way.

By @Mike-Witherell

Thanks Mike. If you're able to say more about the cleverness of other features - even just a list of bullet points - that would be v useful.

Amongst other things I'm guessing Margins & Columns is part of the auto reformatting functionality I know InDesign possesses (but which I don't use/need to use at the moment).

[rob day]

Also, you don’t really need a script—just select all of the pages in the Pages Panel, choose Layout>Margins & Columns and set the Columns > Number to 1:

[Mike-Witherell]

As I understand it, once Margins and Columns has been 'activated' in an InDesign doc, this overrides values for margins entered in Document Setup, 

By @hughc46560181

Actually, this is the same as circling back to File > Document Setup as when you set these up initially in the New Document dialog box.

[Eugene Tyson]

It's possible

[Mike-Witherell]

Relative to this general discussion, I wish Illustrator had margins and columns!

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Ugh. Put me down in the caucus of those who, while appreciating the increasingly seamless interactivity of the big three apps, wish they'd each move in the direction of greater specialization, not completely overlapping Venn circles. 🙂

[Mike Witherell]

I get what you are saying, but I wish for that because of the huge number of producers who use only Illustrator for the production of entire magazines. It starts with the crowd who said: "I only know Illustrator, so I will make all projects and publications in the software I am familiar with."

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

I am too too familiar with Maslow's Hammer, in this arena and others. 😛

I just thought the era of doing full scale layout in AI and PS had... passed along with its grizzled practitioners.

[John D Herzog]

We have clients that do everything in InDesign as well. Booklet, InDesign. Billboard, InDesign.

InDesign can do large scale graphics, but Illustrator is so much better at it and allows for edits of the final file much easier than InDesign. With InDesing you have to go back to the InDesign file and export a new final file or open up the output PDF (our workflow) and deal with the flattened structure and thousands of extra clipping masks.

[rob day]

And - if there isn't one - there should be a way to deactivate Margins and Columns

Hi @hughc46560181 , The column guide count is a page property—Document Setup just sets the document page default. You can easily set all of the page column guides to 1 via scripting. Something like this:

app.documents[0].pages.everyItem().properties = {marginPreferences:{columnCount:1}}

Does this:

After run:

[rob day]

This sets the parent pages:

app.documents[0].masterSpreads.everyItem().pages.everyItem().properties = {marginPreferences:{columnCount:1}}

[hughc46560181]

Thanks for replies All.

I now understand that Margins and Columns is 'always activated' in as much as when I create a new document I can either leave the value for columns as 1 (the default) or enter any other value up to 216.

And for a document like the one I've inherited where the previous editor was using Margins and Columns, I can change the number of columns to 1 and this way I'll no longer see columns.

My issue is with the way InDesign presents multiple ways to edit margins but without a clear/consistent/visible hierarchy in terms of which methods for editing margins override other methods for editing margins.

If I create a new document I can use Properties>Document>Margins to edit page margins across the whole document. But (as above) once I've used the Layout>Margins and Columns dialogue to edit margins/columns, values shown by Properties>Document>Margins are no longer accurate and changing these values no longer has any effect. 

In my view this is very poor UX.

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

I think you're seeing more complexity here than actually exists. The whole page layout feature is like many others in ID: there's a master/intiial/global setup, which in this case is invoked at document creation or through Document Setup changes. You can then modify one Parent page, all Parent pages, or any document page using the Margins & Columns menu, which can be invoked — along with its subsidiary Adjust Layout — from several different locations in the overall UI. Yes, it's a bit confusing to have the same change menu show up in diffferent ways, and have it apply to the page/s you intend, but I don't think it's particularly poor UI design. It's just a complex feature that needs to be invoked in multiple ways.

But since you don't use margins, columns or any of its features, and now have confirmation you can essentially remove it by setting your doc/Parent pages to zero margins and one column... it's a non-issue, right? 🙂

[rob day]

but without a clear/consistent/visible hierarchy

There is a hierarchy.

New documents always have a default Parent Spread or Page. The New Document dialog offers a Columns Number for the default Parent’s Margins and Guides. The parent guides act like any other parent object, you can change all of the page’s margin and column guides from the Parent, as long as you have not altered them from the individual pages. So:

The New Document lets me set the new document’s Parent Spread’s default Column Number to 4:

From the Pages panel I could alter a single page’s Column Number to 2:

Now if I edit the Parent Spread’s Column Numbers to 1, it changes the Parent guides:

In this case all of the pages except the page I edited reflect the Parent Page edit—that is how Parent pages are designed to work for margin guides, ruler guides, and page items:

[hughc46560181]

Thanks for this clear explanation @rob day.

I think my issue is now purely and simply with the weird and inconsistent (non)functionality of Properties>Documents>Margins.

When I open a new InDesign document I can use Properties>Documents>Margins to adjust margins. But If I then make any changes using Layout>Margins and Columns, I can no longer edit margins using Properties>Documents>Margins (I can still change the values at Properties>Documents>Margins but this has no effect on margins in the document - poor UX).

So at best Properties>Documents>Margins is a way to edit margins when I first enter a document if I forgot to set up my margins correctly in the New Document dialogue. After this Layout>Margins and Columns is a better and more powerful way to edit margins because (i) it actually works! and (ii) it offers the Adjust Layout option.

My issues with the way all this is set up in InDesign are:

i) Properties>Documents>Margins is more visible than Layout>Margins and Columns in the interface. Why doesn't Adobe simply replace the current functionality available at Properties>Documents>Margins with the more powerful functionality available at Layout>Margins and Columns?

ii) For users like me who work primarily on visual layouts, not text-based, column formatted layouts, it's not particularly logical or intuitive to bundle Margins and Columns together in a single dialogue as at present. But I'd probably be ok with the 'setting the columns value to 1' as a workaround if not for the other examples of poor UX I'm describing above.

[Robert at ID-Tasker]

@hughc46560181

More than one column has at least one benefit - you don't have to create guides - objects will snap to the columns.

So you don't have to create extra layer for guides and lock it. 

And working with Master / Parent pages is always better than local override. 

[hughc46560181]

Thanks @Robert at ID-Tasker

More than one column has at least one benefit - you don't have to create guides - objects will snap to the columns.

I might experiment with this approach. I anticipate I'll still want to set up guides for vertical arrangement of images, but perhaps this can be on a page by page basis rather than on parent pages.

[Eugene Tyson]

I explained it simply in the opening reply. Perhaps too simply.

Document setup is to create the document from the start the way you want.

You can change the Document Setup - but these are Parent items.
So if you change the Layout Margins and Columns then it breaks the link to the Document Setup - so those pages are given the special Margins and Columns that you need for specific pages. Meaning the Document Setup no longer applies to those pages.

[hughc46560181]

@Eugene Tyson

if you change the Layout Margins and Columns then it breaks the link to the Document Setup - so those pages are given the special Margins and Columns that you need for specific pages. Meaning the Document Setup no longer applies to those pages.

I understand the logic of parent settings being overriden by page-specific settings at various levels. But (why) is there not a way to change the margins and columns settings at Document Setup level after the document has been created?

I can work with/around these quirks. But I remain of the opinion that InDesign's UX is poor in realtion to this functionality.

[Eugene Tyson · Accepted solution]

Ah yes, now I see what you mean.

I hadn't noticed before - I guess I never looked for it before.

You can place feature requests here
https://indesign.uservoice.com/forums/601021-adobe-indesign-feature-requests

I think it's a good idea - but maybe there's a reason

[rob day]

I think my issue is now purely and simply with the weird and inconsistent (non)functionality of Properties>Documents>Margins.

The Properties panel is an alternate to File>Document Setup—for margins they both do the same thing, change the default parent spread’s margins. I’m using CC2021 here but it’s the same with CC2024

If I add a new Parent Spread I can see that margins are not a document property—my new parent spread has its margins set to 0, which of course can not be reflected in the Properties panel or Document Setup because the Properties panel’s margins are for the document’s default parent spread A-Master in this case:

If I change the bottom margin to 3" in the properties panel, the pages with A-Master applied (and no page margin edits) respond to the adjustment. Most complex page layouts are going to use multiple parent pages, so margins can’t be a document level property.