Number List Indentation Issue

[Chris Panny]

I have a document with a numbered list. For some odd reason when the list increments to 20, I'm seeing a big increase in indentation. When it increments to 21-29, it returns to normal (13, -13) but at 30, I see the increase in indentation. It doesn't happed at 10 - only 20, 30, 40, etc. There is nothing there like a shape with text wrap. I tried different left and 1st line indent values including zeroing them out, but nothing changes the bevahior. I tried creating a new paragraph style but still end up with this. I created a new text frame off canvas and each time I get to 20, 30, etc. i see the same thing happens. I tried swapping out fonts - no go. Any help would be grateful. 

[Joel Cherney]

I think that the easiest explanation is that your hanging indent isn't deep enough to fit the zero, in any of the fonts you've tried. In this little mockup, note the tooltip on the guide I've pulled off the ruler - at 13 points, the depth of your hanging indent, there still isn't enough room to fit the zero and the period.

If you want to verify that it's the tab from your numbered list pushing the Whats Up, that's easy enough:

1) Make sure your Type -> Hidden Characters are turned on

2) Select all three numbered items 

3) Go to Type -> Bulleted & Numbered Lists -> Convert Numbering to Text

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

If a tab can't fit in the space alloted (13 pts in this case), it will jump to the next tab setting.

You must have a tab setting about 2 inches in. Check  your tab panel and edit the second tab position accordingly (or add another tab between the two existing tabs).

[Chris Panny]

Thanks for your comments. As you can see in my 2nd screen, there is no value in the tab position. However, when I added a tab value, starting at 1pt, I kept incrementing it. I wasn't keeping track but I believe when i got to the equivilent indent value, the problem corrected itself, but the tab value was also cleared out. Although this fixed it, how come InDesign is flushing out the value so I can't see it anymore? I know it's in the Tab section of the paragraph style, but it's odd it's not listed in the bullet list. 

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

The blank tab setting is when InDesign automatically sets the tab setting. Whenever one sets a left indent and then a negative first line indent, InDesign automatically sets the tab.

[Joel Cherney]

The blank tab setting is when InDesign automatically sets the tab setting. 

It's supposed to do that, but sometimes the field behaves in a half-baked way. I do not believe that this is currently functioning as intended:

I've noticed that the values in the Bullets and Numbering section, specifically in the "Bullet or Number Position" area

that you are talking about, are displayed unreliably. They should be duplicates of other values elsewhere in the Paragraph Style - for instance, you can change the left indent and first line indent in the "Tabs" section of the paragraph style, and those values are reflected immediately in the "Indents and Spacing" section. That's clearly the intended behavior. 

Unfortunately there seem to be some UI issues with those values immediately propogating to the Bullets and Numbering area, so I would suggest that you not rely on that value. Hammering on the More Tab Button until the numerical value disappears seems like a weird solution, so I'd suggest using the Indents and Spacing section, or the Tabs section, to set these values.  I couldn't tell you why it's happening; the only resolution I can think of would be to go file a bug report over at indesign.uservoice.com.  

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

What platform and version are you using? When I try to override the tab setting it returns to the "auto" setting.

Windows 11, InDesign 21.0.1

[Joel Cherney]

I'd tested in 19.5 without realizing it, but 20.5 and 21.0 both display the behavior shown above, on Windows 10.  But I think it's actually behaving correctly according to its internal logic - it is, in fact, returning to the "auto" setting where InDesign controls the tab position. Whenever there is no tab stop set, as you pointed out, InDesign defaults to settting tab stops itself. This sets tab stops every .5 inches/36 points/etc., except in the case where InDesign sets an auto-tab-stop where you create a hanging indent (and thereafter goes back to its every-half-inch default). When you tested overriding the tab position setting, Dave, I suspect you used a sample value larger than that of the negative first-line indent. 

If I try to override the default tab stops with a value larger than the current first tab stop in the "Tab Position" field in "Bullet or Number Position" I see the same behavior -  it happily sets the tab stop visibly in the Tabs ruler, and then immediately grays out the field. If I give it a value smaller than the value of the negative first-line indent, however, it will display the value set in the default units and not gray out. That's because the "Tab Position" field only displays information related to the first tab stop, as that's the only stop that will be relevant to the auto-numbering feature, based on the presence of the tab character "^t" in the "Number" field in "Numbering Style". If I delete that ^t in the "Number" formula, InDesign grays out the entire "Tab Position" field, label as well as value, as there is no longer any need for the numbering tool to look for the first-tab-stop value. It's odd, but it's totally logical. 

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

Here is a short gif of how my numbers work (no tabs have been set):

[Dave Creamer of IDEAS]

@Chris Panny Here are screen captures of what I believe what is causing your problem.

Tab is automatically set to 1p (12pts); there are no tabs set manually:

I set a tab at 18p (3 inches):

This is what happens if the numbers can't fit in the "auto-tab" area: