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robink40059613
robink40059613
Participating Frequently
October 13, 2023
Answered

PDF export for flattened and uncoated to printer

  • October 13, 2023
  • 4 replies
  • 7641 views

This used to be a function now it's not. I need to export pages for uncoated paper (US Web uncoated v2) without changing the black text to 4C and have the file flattened. So far no luck, any suggestions would be helpful. Thanks!

    This topic has been closed for replies.
    Correct answer rob day

    So with your placed pdf, both DeviceCMYK and Profiled CMYK, are treated as DeviceCMYK at Output.

     

    Yes, if the document’s CM Policy is set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked profiles), and the Export is to the PDF/X Standard with No Color Conversion.

     

    How would you keep the DeviceCMYK as DeviceCMYK - BUT Convert the US Web Coated SWOP to GRACol

     

    You would have to change the document’s CMYK Policy to Preserve Embedded Profiles, and Export to PFD/X with the Destination set to DocumentCMYK (Coated GRACoL in ths case). Here the Policy is set to Preserve and InDesign sees the US Web Coated SWOP profile—Separation Preview shows the 4-color SWOP-to-GRACoL conversion:

     

     

    The PDF’s DeviceCMYK 50% Black value is unchanged but it has the GRACoL appearance:

     

     

     

    A PDF/X Export to DocumentCMYK GRACoL converts the SWOP values to GRACol, and exports the DocumentCMYK color as DeviceCMYK:

     

     

     

    The exported PDF color is all Device CMYK because the conversion to GRACoL happened on the Export:

     


    Here are my example files

     

    https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/b0cf0491-4769-4f84-4cd3-a288a12205bd

     

    4 replies

    reproo2773183
    reproo2773183
    Inspiring
    November 9, 2023

    Am curious as to the expectations of placing a pdf into InDesign and Exporting to a fresh pdf.

    Placed pdfs can contain multiple colour spaces and profiles along with Device colours, as such in the Links panel they don't show as having either a space or profile.

    I also recall Dov Isaacs saying that InDesign doesn't see a PDFX's Output Intent, but that was a few years ago.

    I'm not sure how/when placed PDFs behave compared to Images.

     

    So when you place a pdf does it depend on the input Policies for CMYK and RGB as it would do for an image or is that all ignored at this point?

     

    When you Export and Ask for No Colour Conversion do you actually get the PDF the same as it was or do you now get Device CMYK because of a (Preserve Numbers) Policy?

     

    When you ask for Convert to Destination does InDesign then pick apart a PDF and convert? Or do you need to invoke PDFX or PDF version to make this happen?

     

    I sort of think that InDesign's Document Color Policies shouldn't apply to placed PDFs but maybe they do?

    rob day
    Community Expert
    rob dayCommunity Expert
    Community Expert
    November 9, 2023

    Am curious as to the expectations of placing a pdf into InDesign and Exporting to a fresh pdf.

     

    Hi @reproo2773183 , What happens to a placed PDF’s color depends on the destination document’s Color Management Policies, which are saved with the document on creation. It’s important to note that changing the Color Settings’ CM Policies does not change an existing document’s saved policies—you have to use Ask When to force a policy change on an existing document.

     

    If the both the RGB and CMYK document Policies are set to Off, InDesign will ignore all of the PDF’s embedded profiles, and the InDesign document’s RGB and CMYK profiles are assigned to the PDF color—if the ID document has no assigned profiles (Edit>Assign Profiles...), the current Color Settings Working Spaces are assigned.

     

    If the both the RGB and CMYK document Policies are set to Preserve Embedded, then all the PDF’s embedded profiles are honored, and DeviceCMYK and DeviceRGB objects get color managed by the document’s assigned profiles.

     

    If the document’s CMYK Policy is set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) all of the PDF’s CMYK colors are considered Device CMYK (their profiles are ignored), and RGB objects would keep their embedded profiles.

     

    Note that the Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) CM policy is not the same as the Export>Output Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)—the output preserve numbers choice only preserves native and document CMYK values. All RGB and profiled CMYK color would still get converted.

     

    A PDF/X document’s Output Intent Profile is always ignored.

      reproo2773183
      reproo2773183
      Inspiring
      November 9, 2023

      so if the CMYK vector and type in a placed pdf is tagged with a profile...  will the Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) CM policy strip those profiles, then Assign the InDesign Document Profile ones if you ask the Export to Include All Profiles ?

       

      With regards to the original poster's issue, they'd need to have a profile on the CMYK images they want to change at output.

      quote

      Export>Output Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)—the output preserve numbers choice only preserves native and document CMYK values. All RGB and profiled CMYK color would still get converted.

       

       

      So the original poster could use this difference by setting his Document CMYK profile to something other than the Uncoated he rquires to convert to?

      L
      Community Expert
      LaubenderCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      October 20, 2023

      @rob day said: "Sounds like a bug, but I’m surprised it hasn’t come up yet. Maybe someone with the latest version can check— Uwe @Laubender ?"

       

      Hi Rob,

      tested with @robink40059613 's IDML document and my German InDesign 2024 version 19.0.0.151.

      Exported to PDF/X-1a and used U.S. Web Uncoated v2 as output intent.

      Color Conversion was set to: Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers).

       

      The black text stayed as 100% K only. Screenshot from Acrobat Pro:

       

       

      The image contents is still way above 260% total of ink:

       

       

      Opened the placed PDF in Acrobat Pro. The images in the PDF are in Device CMYK.

      The output intent of the placed PDF is ISO Web Coated. PDF producer is Canva.

       

      I would not expect that InDesign is converting the images' color of the placed PDF when exporting to PDF because they are in Device CMYK.

       

      I attached the exported PDF to this reply.

      Will test other versions of InDesign as well later; 2022 and 2023.

      Currently I'm on macOS 12.6.8 with a MacBook Pro from 2021 and a M1 chip.

       

      Regards,
      Uwe Laubender
      ( Adobe Community Expert )

        rob day
        Community Expert
        rob dayCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        October 20, 2023

        Hi Uwe, thanks for testing.

         

        I’m seeing the same for all with CC2021. I was only checking the InDesign [Black] text, but I agree, the placed PDF passes a PDF/X-1a preflight, so all of its color has to be Device CMYK. Even if there is a bug and it gets fixed, the attempt to convert the placed PDF to a different CMYK space and protect the native [Black] via InDesign isn’t going to work.

         

        Also, looks like the test PDF @robink40059613 provided, Uncoated Test.pdf has had all of its color converted—the black point in the images is less than 260%. It’s the result you would get if the Color Conversion setting was set to Convert to Destination with a Destination profile that conflicts with the document profile—in that case we would expect the Black to convert to 4-color

         

          rob day
          Community Expert
          rob dayCommunity Expert
          Community Expert
          October 13, 2023

          Hi @robink40059613 , Is US Web Uncoated assigned to the InDesign document—check Edit>Assign Profiles... not Color Settings?

           

          Do you have Document CMYK set as the PDF/X-1a Output Destination (the Destination does not conflict with the document’s assigned profile)?

           

          Is the color you are expecting to be limited to 260% either RGB or a placed CMYK asset with a conflicting profile? Total ink is only limited on a color conversion—you could make a document CMYK build that exceeds 260% and it would not change on an Export to Document CMYK.

           

          Also are you using any Blending Modes that darken e.g. Multiply or Darken?

           

          robink40059613
          robink40059613Author
          Participating Frequently
          October 13, 2023

          in Edit>Assign Profiles no but I've tried that using the uncoated profile there still not working correctly.

          Yes using the PDF/X=1a and the final pdf file needs to be under 260% so as not to plug in on press.

          I'm not using any blending modes. I'm working with advertisers ad files that need to be converted on a whole to uncoated without changing the black text to 4C.

          rob day
          Community Expert
          rob dayCommunity Expert
          Community Expert
          October 13, 2023

          If you are Exporting to a Destination that conflicts with the document’s assigned CMYK profile and set the Output Color Conversion to Convert to Destination, CMYK black only would have to be converted to 4-color. If you choose Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers) the native InDesign colors and swatches would be protected, but placed RGB images and CMYK images with conflicting embedded profiles would convert to the uncoated profile with the 260% total ink.

           

           

           

          If there are placed CMYK images or objects with no embedded profile, but have a total ink that exceeds 260% those images would export unchanged.

           

          Can you share a packaged example that is exceeding the ink limit on export?

          BobLevine
          Community Expert
          BobLevineCommunity Expert
          Community Expert
          October 13, 2023

          Use PDF/X-1a and then find another printer that can take PDF/X-4.

          robink40059613
          robink40059613Author
          Participating Frequently
          October 13, 2023

          I am the printer. I used the PDF/X-4 with the uncoated profile, it still will not convert to under 260%.

           

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