pdf/X-3 exports RGB pictures in a more gray tint. Bug?

[Blieper]

Hello,

Since half a year when I export with pdf/X-3, some RGB photos are exported like a more gray tint than that they should be. If I export to pdf/X-4, everything is allright. Is this a bug in InDesign from the latest version?

Attachment, the two pictures at the bottom, you can see the Blacj taht is some like grayed...

Thanks, Henri

[Willi Adelberger]

• Did you select the correct output profile?
• Do you convert to CMYK? Are you aware that the CMYK gamuth is smaller than the RGB gamuth?

[Blieper]

I selected the standard pdf/X-3 from Indesign. I have to deliver it allways in X-3 and had never this issue, but since half a year we have this. We had to repress one order all over. Never saw this before.
I never convert to CMYK because Indesign converted this to CMYK. This is how it worked for years...

[rob day]

Hi Henri, can you share the PDF? You should be able to attach it to a reply.

[Blieper]

Hello Rob Day,

Because of the privacy roles I can't publish this file in public. Maybe you can sent me a e-amil where I can attach it to.

Sincerely, Henri

[rob day]

Hi Henri, All of the images in your PDF seem to inspect as DeviceCMYK, so even though you Exported to PDF/X-3 it looks like you set the Output>Color Conversion to a CMYK space—or all of the images were already converted to CMYK before you placed them:

It seems like at least the 2 problem images were converted to CMYK before you placed and exported—they have a radically different black generation than the other images, and I don’t think you could get a black generation like this with an export conversion to your Coted FOGRA27 Output Intent profile.

[Blieper]

I understand, but why is it going well with the 'Press' and 'X-4' profiles. So there must be something in X-3 that is holding this black matter back?

[Blieper]

And no, I didn't convert the images before to CMYK...

[Blieper]

I saw in Bridge that those Pictures had a uncoded profile...

[rob day]

Can you select one of the problem images and show a screen capture of your InDesign Link Info panel? 

And maybe share one of the problem JPEGs?

[rob day]

Also, does it happen if you export to PDF/X-1a?

[Blieper]

Yes, in X-1 is the same...

[Blieper]

Only X-4 is perfect 😄

[Frans v.d. Geest]

That is because PDF/X-4 does no CMYK conversion 😉 It leaves the color spaces and transparency 'as is'.

[Blieper]

[rob day]

It seems like some kind corruption in the document—I can see it’s randomly happening on a few other pages.

If you copy the problem image along with its transparency effects into a new document and export to PDF/X-3 does it still happen? You could also  try Saving As to an IDML, and see if opening the IDML and exporting fixes the problem.

[Blieper]

I allready walked through this idml process, but I will try it again. Didn't solve the problem. But I try it again...

[Blieper]

All the pictures where filterd before in Adobe Photoshop with Cam RAW and saved again (most JPEG).

What I also know is that some customers deliver some pictures via WhatsApp and InDesign doesn't import those directy in the placeholders. I get an error. Also those pictures are strange in my oppinion 😉

[rob day]

Any chance you could Package the page and its assets, and message it to me? I don‘t need the entire document—just drag and drop the problem page into a new document and Package the single page and links.

[Blieper]

Helloooo,

I did the idml opening and I had the same wrong X-3 pdf.

I also opened the idml file in Affinity (sorry), but there the export to X-3 was okay. Maybe is that more info for you huys to explore... 

Ps Rob the package is in you mail box, thanks Henri

[rob day]

WhatsApp and InDesign doesn't import those directy in the placeholders

The color looks ok in your capture from InDesign—have you tried resaving the JPEG as a PSD in Photoshop and relinking?

What makes this strange is the PDF/X-3 preset flattens all transparency and allows RGB images to export unchanged. However, you have transparency on your pages, so even if you leave the PDF/X-3 Output tab at the default No Color Conversion, the images still get converted into the document’s CMYK Transparency Blend Space because of the flattening.

The expected CMYK conversion would be into your document’s assigned CMYK profile—FOGRA27 in your case, and I can see for most of the images that’s what happened. FOGRA27 has a total ink limit of 350% and if I check the black point values of the good images that’s what I see. The bad images have black point total ink values of around 100%, so we know for some reason the conversion to CMYK on export for those images was not to the expected FOGRA27.

[Blieper]

Just did it saved to .psd and relinked, same issue... not okay.

I solved the problem to save the jpeg to CMYK. But I was just wondering, because in the past it was always okay...

[rob day]

The problem does seem to be with the RGB JPEGs saved with no profile—images listed as Document RGB in the Links Panel.

The normal behaviour with DocumentRGB images is, they are assigned the InDesign document’s RGB profile—sRGB in your case—and a conversion to CMYK on export would be from sRGB to document CMYK (FOGRA27). That’s clearly not happening here, not sure if it’s a bug or something peculiar to the JPEGs.

I can fix the problem images by selecting, overriding the default Use Document Default in Object>Image Color Settings..., and explicitly setting the profile:

The export to PDF/X3

[Blieper]

Ola, thank you for your expertise Rob. It wil help me definitly for the future 🙂

[rob day]

I did some tests with images I created in Photoshop and there were no problems, so it does seem to be an issue with the JPEGs you are receiving.