Printing a book in offset makes colors pale

[Marianna_Lapina]

Hi.

I'm printing a book in offset print, on uncoated paper. The printing house told me to use this color profile "PSO uncoated v3 FOGRA52". When I use it - all the colors turn pale and dim. The black is grey not black anymore. 

I printed an example book in digital print and there the colors were bright. I know that digital print and offset are different things, and use different technology, and the uncoated paper absorbs color. The printing house said the only thing I can do is fix something in inDesign. I triet setting both "Appearance of black" to "output all blacks as rich blacks" and also "output all blacks accurately"

Is there anything I can do to make the colors bright and the blacks very black using this color profile "PSO uncoated v3 FOGRA52"?

You can see in the pictures - one is bright and the blacks are deep. The pale one is using the color profile.

[Robert Tkaczyk]

Have you checked separations and what values do you have in black areas? 

[James Gifford—NitroPress]

Even though you say you understand this, offset printing and digital printing are very different in a number of ways. For one thing, there's almost no such thing as ink spread or diffusion in digital (toner-based) printing, whereas the plates for offset printing have to include very specific adjustments for the paper being used, and to some extent the press and inks. Toner printing is almost always on bright coated paper; you've said this job is headed to uncoated paper, which is going to have a somewhat duller result.

Which means that what you see in ID is not any good representation of what you will see from the printed result. You should talk to your printer and ask for samples printed on the same press to the same standards, to see if they are what you will find acceptable... instead of, say, opening the first carton of a 500-book run and finding it's duller than you want.

The extreme vibrance of digital printing (which to some extent is due to "acceptable" color shift and enhancement by the printer) can only be duplicated by the higher-end offset processes, with high linescreens, coated paper, careful press adjustment and sometimes even added colors (spot and/or hex color).

This is entirely up to a conversation with your printer about getting results that are (1) the best he can deliver from that paper and process and (2) up to your realistic expectations.

[Test Screen Name]

Wisengwane, you are posting nonsense in 2 places. This will be called spam and deleted. 

[rob day]

When I use it - all the colors turn pale and dim. The black is grey not black anymore. 

Hi @Marianna_Lapina , How are you using the profile? It sounds like you are assigning the profile to a CMYK image, when it should be the destination for your RGB to CMYK conversions.

The easiest way to do that is make sure your InDesign document has PSO Uncoated as its assigned CMYK profile, and place profiled RGB art. When you export to Document CMYK there will be a conversion from RGB to PSO Uncoated:

Also, make sure your Color Settings Conversion Options are set to Relative Colorimetric with Use BPC checked:

[rob day]

Rather than a screen capture can you attach a sample InDesign file and the placed image? There are a lot of variables that could affect the page display.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

The pale sample you have is not uncommon for printing on uncoated stock, particularly if the Black is all by itself (i.e. no other ink of C M or Y underneath. The FIRST ink to hit the paper absorbs the most. In a full-colour photo, this would normally be the Yellow ink (which is less notieceable when it absorbs), then the subsequent inks will have something to "sit on", so to speak. It doesn't show on your sample image, but on your actual printed sample on uncoated, is there still a halftone dot in your darkest "black" areas? (e.g. in the circled area). You may need a loupe/magnifying glass if you can't see them by eye). If there isn't, you are already printing in 100% Black and that will not get any darker, unless you change your Blacks to a rich black so that there is a bit of volume under the Black to give it some support.

 

[Lukas Engqvist]

Fogra 52 simulates how colours will be on uncoated paper. (Not how it will look when freshly printed but how it will look about 20 minutes after). If you add "more" colour in your file the printer will have to limit ink on press and you will get less, or the job will smear and take long time to dry… the paper can not hold more ink. The pigment goes deep into the fibresand this is why light is reflected and you do not get as deep black as on a glass surface. This is the way the physical world works. There are less environmentally friendly ways to force a paper to get more colour even if it is uncoated. Toner based printing the toner does not go into the fibres and colours are therefore not as muted on laser printers. This is also true for some UV cured inks that are getting more saturation (at the expense of the environment).

Now the thing is that you are seeing and reacting to this on the screen, because it is not the colour you expect from a monitor, but if you see it in a print it is what you will expect and therefore it will be fine. (Hold up a printed product on uncoted paper to your screen and compare the darkest and clearest colours and you will see what it is trying to show)

What you should be concerne about is not the bright colours that are not so bright but are there saturated areas that become flat because you have over saturated them. Compare the bright red letters, where the red is losinig variation because you are out of the range of your printer. Adjusting the saturation down will give you more variation because you are working within the capacity of your process. Compare it to listening to heavy regae music on a checp speaker… adding base is not going to make your music sound better, it will just distort it more because you have reached the limit of your equipment.
By the way are you looking at this on a calibrated monitor, in a controlled viewing environment.

[Peter Spier]

Have you talked to the printer about changing the paper?

[Lukas Engqvist]

There are some coated (or semi-coated) paper like Acric Volome, from Arctic Papers that have a nice "paper feel" but cound as a coated paper.