Problem: scale text as part of a group

[juleens95082705]

Hi everyone,

this problem has been driving me nuts for ages now and I've decided I've finally had enough, so desperately hoping to find some help here.

I don't think it has anything to do with my ID version or system as I said I've had this problem for years over different devices, but just in case I'm using CC2019 on MacOS High Sierra.

Initial problem: I want to scale a group that contains one or more text boxes. If I enlarge the group by pressing shift + cmd and dragging the corners OR entering a percentage, it seems to work just fine. However if I want to scale the group down with the same method my text doesn't fit the bounding box anymore.
I then tried to change my preferences to "When Scaling -> Adjust scaling percentage" before scaling, but it gives me the dreaded "font-size in parenthesis problem". I googled again and saw that a lot of people suggested to select the option "redefine scaling to 100%" to fix the parenthesis and it seemed to work for everyone except me - when doing this, again my text doesn't fit the bounding box anymore. The text size seems correct but when selecting this option something seems to be off with the tracking? (see screenshots) Again I googled, but couldn't find anything about it.

I don't know if I'm missing something super obvious there but I'm sure it can't be such a pain to simply scale things?

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Tested it with CC 2017, 2018 and 2019. made sure the first text had Optical set. No matter what I set or do, grouped or not etc. it scales just fine here with Cmnd-Shift Selection Tool and Scale tool. Trowing in auto fit to box makes no difference.

See screenmovie:

www.fvdgeest.nl/Scalemod.mp4

[DBLjan]

As you see at 0:16, I hit fit2frame and the text gets enclosed by the frame.
Ive set the kerning to optical secs before. now I scale that box, and it oversets. I assume InDesign tries to maintain a optic-corrected look and adjust the individual kerning (as you see when you scroll thru the characters, there are different kernings per letter like (16) (-4) (-23) all just in one word) but because the textbox doesnt have any space left to use more kerning, it oversets. Nothing unexpected. I live with it

[rob day]

The reason I keep bringing up the Transform Tool is it would be a test as to whether the problem is with the keyboard or its settings.

The Transform Tool acts like the Selection Tool when it is modified with the Command key, and the Selection Tool acts like the Transform Tool when it is modified with the Command key. So if the text frame scales when using the Transform tool and no modifier keys, it might indicate a problem with the keyboard or its settings. OSX lets you modify the response time of the keyboard.

[DBLjan]

Yep, it does, without using any key. But, should we care?
Im more in rage about the broken FitFrame2Content (if the content is skewd/rotated) since CS.

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Im more in rage about the broken FitFrame2Content (if the content is skewd/rotated) since CS.

Not seeing that either here. Works fine here. There is something broken only at your end it seems...

www.fvdgeest.nl/testrotate.mp4

[DBLjan]

Rotate the content, not the frame

Which result would you prefer?

[Frans v.d. Geest]

DBLjan  schreef

Rotate the content, not the frame

yes, that makes sense, because if the image is on another skew or degree than the frame it is in, you never can fit the frame! You can not pass a square into a round form as we all know from our childhood -)

[DBLjan]

Frans van der Geest​, you are wrong. Id expect from the frame to NOT COVER the content.

Maybe you trust the argumentation of well-known experts, like Uwe Laubender, who tried to tackle this by script:

Re: Actions (like in PS/Illu) in InDesign / functions batch? (Dont let the thread-name fool you)

Heres another one:

Re: Is this a bug? Fit2Content with text-box-auto-adjust

Or this:

[Frans v.d. Geest]

Ah yes, sure, but that is not what I am seeing here...

EDIT: Ah yes, it should at least keep the crop box not create a smaller one. See what you mean.

[rob day]

Yep, it does, without using any key. But, should we care?

I think so. It seems to indicate the modifier keys are not modifying the tool's behavior for you, but they are for me and Frans.

The difference could be your keyboard settings (the keyboard sensitivity or an OS key command that is interfering with InDesign?) or the timing of when you press the Command modifier key. With the Selection tool, the Command key modifier has to be applied before the frame is dragged for it to change the tool’s behavior to a transform—it can't be after or simultaneous with the drag.

[DBLjan]

rob day​, we running in circles here.

Ill try to explain with my sloppy english:

• I dont used any key and just clicked and dragged the textbox off proportion.
• It only happens if I scale down
• It happens with every font
• It only happens if optical kerning is applied

And heres why:
If I scale a text with optic/auto-kerning, the auto-correction of the kerning is used, to maintain a look. A mathmatically look (metric) is good, but corrected by optic the kerning can be made nicer. InDesign does this by the magic of some kerning-tables i guess. This isnt a problem, if the textbox has enough space to house e.g. (16) or (23) kerning between two characters.

If I scale the text again, I can witness the numbers change: HELLO WORLD, between H and E the optical auto kerning is (16). If I scale that down (you name the method), the kerning now is maybe (23).

Its logically to me, that a fitted frame, kerning 16, cant fit with kerning 17+.

[Laubender]

Hi Jan,

good explanation of the issue.

What fitted before does not fit after scaling because InDesign reconsiders the values for Optical kerning.

That behavior seems to be part of a feature of the composition engine.

Example:

Kerning between "P" and "t" is value (12):

Kerning between "P" and "t" is value (8):

Thank you for pointing this out.

Uwe

[Laubender]

So this behavior is no bug. It's a feature. A feature of Optical Kerning.

( Just wanted to point this out. )

Regards,
Uwe

[juleens95082705]

rob day​ I'm getting the same thing as DBLjan .
I'm wondering if it's a thing with German ID as I'm also using that

[juleens95082705]

DBLjan​ I tried to install it as described here (I also looked at the related article with how to get the code in a proper format) but ID doesn't let me run it (it has an exclamation mark beside it)... 😕

Anyway thanks everyone for making me a bit smarter and providing all of these solutions and ideas.

I will still try to run Laubender​ 's script but looking at what I want to achieve and what optical kerning is designed to do I think DBLJan's suggestion to use auto-adjust-textbox or simply try to stick to metric instead of optical kerning will be my go-to solution for now

[DBLjan]

Never heard of that 🙂

I assume it doesnt run because of some filetype/format error.

Are you on MacOS or Windows?

There a serveral apps to help edit scripts, but a simple texteditor like OSs 'TextEdit' or Notepad.exe should do, key is to set the file/default to palin text, not .rtf or .doc.

Just save it as 'MyScript.jsx' because its a javascript. If you get an apple-script (different coding language) you need to save as .script or .applescript.

Have to go now, into the weekend.

[Laubender]

juleens95082705  wrote

DBLjan  I tried to install it as described here (I also looked at the related article with how to get the code in a proper format) but ID doesn't let me run it (it has an exclamation mark beside it)... :/…

Hi juleens95082705 ,

here another description how to save code, install and run a script by Marc Autret:

Indiscripts :: Indiscripts for Dummies

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Uwe

[juleens95082705]

Ah sorry, Laubender​ and DBLjan​ , it's working now - I just forgot to change the ending of the file that I created in TextEdit to .js ....