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Dear Adobe Team,
As Persian speakers, we face significant challenges when using Adobe software due to the lack of a dedicated Persian language engine, which is currently intertwined with Arabic language support. While Persian and Arabic share some similarities, they have distinct differences in typography, punctuation, and text behavior, which causes issues in Adobe's applications like After Effects, Illustrator, and InDesign.
The current Arabic engine does not fully accommodate Persian text rendering and typographic nuances, leading to errors and inconsistencies, especially in Right-to-Left (RTL) scripts. We, the Persian-speaking users, represent a considerable user base worldwide, and we believe that introducing a separate, dedicated Persian language engine would vastly improve the usability and efficiency of Adobe products for our community.
We kindly request that Adobe consider the development of an independent Persian language engine, separate from the Arabic one, to enhance the experience for Persian-speaking users and allow for a more accurate and efficient interaction with Adobe software.
We look forward to your positive response and support for this suggestion.
Best regards, akbar
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You should post it here:
https://indesign.uservoice.com/forums/601021-adobe-indesign-feature-requests
Then post link here for others to vote.
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Install the ME enabled version of the Creative Cloud Applications. Farsi Support is included
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Thank you for your suggestion!
While I appreciate the recommendation to install the ME-enabled version of the Creative Cloud applications, I am already using the version that supports right-to-left (RTL) languages, including Persian. However, the issue still persists with certain aspects of Persian typography, particularly with accurate word joining, punctuation, and glyph rendering.
It seems that despite using the ME version, some of the specific challenges with Persian typesetting remain. This includes the correct rendering of Persian ligatures, punctuation marks, and ensuring that numbers and characters align properly when mixed with English text.
Would you happen to know of any additional settings or features that might help improve Persian typography even further in the ME version of Adobe apps?
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I can't read Persian at all, but I frequently lay out the work of Persian translators. I frequently hear comments like yours, but I have find that they are usually easy to resolve, usually by one of two methods, either "Oh, that just needs the correct language-aware OpenType settings applied" or "Oh, that just needs a zero-width non-joiner."
Can you explain exactly what typesetting features you find are necessary to improve Persian layout in InDesign? With screenshots, and examples, and explanations for typographically sophisticated readers who don't know a word of Persian? Specific fixes are more likely to be implemented from a feature request than a broad "please make this work better" request, I think. Additionally, it may be possible to prove via testing that a given glyph rendering issue might be a fix to be requested of Adobe vs. one that should be reported to the HarfBuzz GitHub.
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hank you for your reply!
I appreciate your suggestions regarding OpenType settings and the zero-width non-joiner. However, I believe that some issues with Persian typography are not always that simple to resolve with these techniques, especially when dealing with complex text rendering in InDesign.
Here are some specific issues we often encounter when typesetting Persian text:
Word Joining/Breaking:
Persian text often has issues with the correct joining of characters (especially in initial, medial, and final forms of letters) when OpenType settings are not properly configured. This can result in incorrect or inconsistent word connections.
Punctuation:
Persian punctuation marks (like commas, periods, quotation marks) often do not align properly with the text, especially when mixing Persian with English text. There are cases where punctuation marks need to be adjusted manually for correct positioning.
Text Direction & Alignment:
While InDesign supports right-to-left (RTL) text, some elements still misbehave with text flowing properly, such as numbers or certain letters being misaligned when mixed with English.
Ligature Issues:
Certain ligatures in Persian fonts might not be displayed correctly unless specific features are enabled in OpenType or font settings. This often results in visual inconsistencies.
I believe addressing these issues in a more direct way—either through more sophisticated OpenType features or improved support for Persian script in Adobe apps—would greatly enhance the experience for Persian typesetters.
I can share more detailed examples with screenshots if necessary. This could help narrow down whether these issues are fixable in InDesign or if they need further attention from Adobe or HarfBuzz.
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All of these things that you're described sound like they would be uncontroversial and important improvement to any page layout app. However, they don't seem like they need specific treatment for Persian language alone. All right-to-left languages that can be laid out in InDesign share these issues, to some extent.
I encourage you to post bug reports and feature requests over at indesign.uservoice.com, but I don't personally believe that the InDesign dev team is likely to build a whole new text composition subsystem for Persian, specifically. It doesn't fit that well with the current InDesign model of having different composers for different kinds of text. There's a "J Composer" for Japanese that also handles Chinese and Korean grid layout, and the "World-Ready Composer" for right-to-left scripts, and complex South Asian and Southeast Asian scripts. I don't know what the future roadmap looks like for InDesign's handling of complex scripts, but that structure doesn't seem like it's going to have language-specific subsystems in it. No harm in asking, but if your goal is "better Persian layout in InDesign" then I think that you might want to familiarlize yourself with the current feature request system at use in the development of InDesign, and adjust your strategy to fit.
Accordingly, I think that your best way forward, if you want to pursue improving Persian layout tools in InDesign, is going to be to
1) Present some specific issues, with screenshots
2) Post these issues to the Uservoice
3) Mobilize your community of people doing Persian layout to go and vote up those issues you've posted to the Uservoice
3b) also post those issues here, as I know I'm not the only person working with complex scripts in InDesign who would like to see improviements, and who will immediately go and vote up any issue even vaguely related to my work
4) Actively look for people on the Internet who are having problems with Persian layout in InDesign and publicly posting them, help those people, and then tell them "Oh by the way, please go sign up for Uservoice and vote up these particular issues that, once addressed by the InDesign dev team, will make Persian layout better."
I have some specific responses to your descriptions of these issues below:
Word Joining/Breaking:
Persian text often has issues with the correct joining of characters (especially in initial, medial, and final forms of letters) when OpenType settings are not properly configured. This can result in incorrect or inconsistent word connections.
I don't think that there is anything unique about Persian in InDesign, here. That statement sounds like it applies to Arabic, Dari, Pashto, and Urdu as well. I'd love to see some specific examples, though.
Punctuation:
Persian punctuation marks (like commas, periods, quotation marks) often do not align properly with the text, especially when mixing Persian with English text. There are cases where punctuation marks need to be adjusted manually for correct positioning.
I tend to use automation (e.g. a GREP style) to finesse the appearance of Latin-script punctuation in the middle of Persian (Arabic, Dari, Pashto, Urdu) text. If you can post an example, I'd be happy to suggest a technique that will allow you to skip the manual positioning of punctuation. But, broadly speaking, issues like these usually come from the font metrics. If you can show us some cases where the punctuation in mixed Persian/English text is consistently handled incorrectly in InDesign, in a variety of different fonts, but consistently renders correctly in a different app using the same font(s), you may have a case regarding which it'd be worth filing a bug report.
But most of my work is in complex-script languages, with lots of parenthetical English as the documents are meant to be used in the US, and making the Latin-script parenthetica text look decent next to the Arabic/Burmese/Chinese/Dari/Estonian/Faerorese/Georgian/et cetera is usually a challenge in any language. In cases where it's easy, it's almost always because the font's Latin block was designed well.
Ligature Issues:
Certain ligatures in Persian fonts might not be displayed correctly unless specific features are enabled in OpenType or font settings. This often results in visual inconsistencies.
That sounds more like a font problem than an issue with the World-Ready Composer or with Harfbuzz, but without a specific example it's impossible to say. Once again, this sounds like working in any one of a number of languages in InDesign - here I am saying "Arabic, Dari, Pashto, Urdu" again.
I'm not saying that InDesign couldn't handle Persian layout better, but I am fairly well convinced that there's nothing unique about how well or poorly Persian language in particular is handled in InDesign. But, once again, I'm not literate in the language, so my take has relatively little weight. If my take is incorrect, I would be absolutely thrilled to see some examples demonstrating this.
Would you happen to know of any additional settings or features that might help improve Persian typography even further in the ME version of Adobe apps?
I've never used it before, but I've read a few positive reviews of Manzar by people who work with nastaliq. I'm not a ScribeDOOR user, but I'm aquainted with people who have been doing right-to-left layout since the Creative Suite era when all ME Editions were made by Winsoft, and there are a few of those who swear by ScribeDOOR and tell me that it's much faster and easier to use it than it is to use the native InDesign RTL tools.
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Thank you for your detailed and thoughtful response. I completely agree that many of the issues I've mentioned are common among right-to-left languages and are handled similarly by text engines. However, Persian, with its unique characteristics, presents specific challenges in tools like InDesign.
One of these differences is the number and type of characters. While Arabic has 28 letters, Persian has 32. This creates problems in tasks like indexing or alphabetical sorting. Letters such as "گ", "چ", "پ", and "ژ" do not exist in Arabic, and the "ی" and "ک" have different shapes. These differences make it difficult for InDesign to handle Persian properly, requiring more manual editing.
But allow me to explain a point from a linguistic and user perspective:
Although Persian uses the Arabic script, its writing structure, punctuation, integration with Latin words, and even the use of the "half-space" (which plays a crucial role in correct writing) have made the Persian writing experience in tools like InDesign more challenging. For example:
There's no automatic way to detect or set half-space;
When Persian and English are mixed, punctuation marks often shift drastically, even with fonts that render correctly in Word or browsers;
Shaping specific combinations of words with diacritical marks or special Persian characters like "ۀ" or "ی" sometimes fails.
The suggestions you mentioned regarding UserVoice are very useful, and I will certainly continue along that path. I just wanted to highlight these linguistic and cultural differences alongside the technical challenges, in the hope that we can see more targeted improvements in the future.
Thanks again for your time! 🙏