Subset Fonts

[ishfaqbaijoo]

Hello,

I need to send my PDF for commercial print.

I do not want to outline my fonts.

I usually use flattener preview to outline or give them all my fonts to install.

However if I set my percentage of font subset in InDesign to 0%, does that mean my printer will not need my fonts or I do not have to outline my text?

Thank you in advance.

[Test Screen Name]

1. Subsetting fonts is pretty much always done today, it is basically an obsolete preference.

2. You can only legally send fonts to the printer if they already own a license WHATEVER THE PRINTER SAYS.

3. Flattener preview is not designed to remove fonts; sometimes it does this as a side effect, but often it will not.

4. If you embed a font (subset or not) the printer does not need them unless they are going to edit your file; you should negotiate on this point.

5. Outlining, rasterising and flattening is considered obsolete and poor practice.

[Dov Isaacs]

Exactly what is the issue?

A properly created PDF file from InDesign has fonts subset-embedded.

The resultant PDF file should have no issues whatsoever with regards to printing text using those embedded fonts.

If you are sending a PDF file for commercial printing, the fact that the fonts are embedded in the PDF file means that you don't need to provide any fonts externally to the printer.

You should never, repeat never, repeat once again “outline text” as such processes degrade quality and terribly bloat the size of the PDF file and can dramatically increase RIP time.

          - Dov

[ishfaqbaijoo]

I agree InDesign embed the fonts in the PDF.

But last time, my printer said they need the fonts converted because their computer could not recognize it.

Any solution here?

[Dov Isaacs]

Sounds like you have a “printer” who is either using very archaic software or RIPs or is trying to do something ridiculous such as attempting to edit arbitrary PDF files in Adobe Illustrator.

I would look for another printer. There are plenty of them out there, some much more knowledgeable and competent than others.

          - Dov

[Jeffrey_Smith]

A subset will encode only the glyphs used in the document in the export. The PDF Font Properties will show embedded subset.

However if I set my percentage of font subset in InDesign to 0%

This will embed all glyphs in the export, regardless of whether they were used or not . The PDF Font Properties will show embedded, and create a larger file than the subset version.

[Dov Isaacs]

However, non-subset embedding (embedding all glyphs in a font whether used by the text or not) buys you absolutely nothing other than bloated PDF file size.

The only time you non-subset embedding is of any use and for that matter is required, is if you use a particular font for PDF forms fields. (And of course, InDesign doesn't let you choose a form field's font and thus, full font embedding in PDF exported from InDesign is effectively irrelevant!)

          - Dov

[Jeffrey_Smith]

I will add this situation as one that required the 0% subset method. Exporting a PDF for a program, where there are various PDF advertisements from different sources, on the same page, and sharing same fonts. The solution was to export with complete font embedding.

[Dov Isaacs]

Applications that allow placement of PDF files from different sources should not require full fonts. Such applications, when generating PDF, should know how to properly consolidate, if possible, PDF font subsets. This is exactly what happens when one places PDF into InDesign.

Also, FWIW, the 0% subset method absolutely does not guarantee that InDesign (and its underlying Adobe Core Technology components) will in fact embed the full font (either all glyphs or entire OpenType font)!

          - Dov

[Jeffrey_Smith]

Applications that allow placement of PDF files from different sources should not require full fonts.

Dov,

- I am using Indesign for the layout of the program.

- I am placing PDFs of advertisements that are not created by me, but other agencies.

- The source application of these ads can be Indesign, Illustrator, QuarkExpress, Microsoft Word, etc.

- There can be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 6 ads per page.

When exporting the program document to PDF from Indesign while leaving the font subset at 100%, there can be pages where isolated ads have errors, i.e. characters drop out and are replaced with boxes. I can resolve this issue by exporting the program document with 0% font subsetting.

I agree that for most PDF exports, 0% subsetting is not required. The project described above is not uncommon. And usually there are no font problems associated with this kind of project. But, this suggestion is offered as a last step problem solving measure only.

[Dov Isaacs]

Jeffrey_Smith  wrote

Applications that allow placement of PDF files from different sources should not require full fonts.

Dov,

- I am using Indesign for the layout of the program.

- I am placing PDFs of advertisements that are not created by me, but other agencies.

- The source application of these ads can be Indesign, Illustrator, QuarkExpress, Microsoft Word, etc.

- There can be 1, 2, 3, 4 or 6 ads per page.

When exporting the program document to PDF from Indesign while leaving the font subset at 100%, there can be pages where isolated ads have errors, i.e. characters drop out and are replaced with boxes. I can resolve this issue by exporting the program document with 0% font subsetting.

I agree that for most PDF exports, 0% subsetting is not required. The project described above is not uncommon. And usually there are no font problems associated with this kind of project. But, this suggestion is offered as a last step problem solving measure only.

This would be indicative of PDF files provided to you that were defective (in terms of how the fonts were embedded) in the first place. It would be very interesting if you were able to do rigorous preflighting of such PDF files that you are placing to determine what if any font issues they may have.

FWIW, having used InDesign since its pre-beta days and do extensive work with placed PDF in InDesign documents (with the PDF coming from all sorts of unsavory places), I haven't yet experienced this type (pun intended) of problem.

If you were to come up with an example of this type of issue, if you could package up the assets and make them available for us at Adobe, maybe we can get to the bottom of what is causing the problems and see if we can finesse them in some way! (Contact me via PM on these forums!)

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

          - Dov

[Jeffrey_Smith]

Dov, although the project I described is not recent, I will certainly look and see if I can locate it, and send it to you.

[Dov Isaacs]

Most appreciated. If there is some hiccup in our software, I certainly want to isolate and fix it!

          - Dov

[Raphaël Freeman]

My question is that for example, I have an updated version of Arno Pro which fixes the German quotation marks. I want to make sure that my version of Arno Pro is used and not perhaps a version that the printer may have.

So how do I make sure that this happens? Subset below 0%? 97%? 100%?

I don’t seem to get a clear answer from various posts on the web.

[BobLevine]

If it’s embedded in a PDF what difference does it make?

[Raphaël Freeman]

I don’t honestly know. I was once told by a service bureaux that it was best to write 97%, but now I see that the default is 0%. Now I see a certification for Lightning source that says you have to embed fonts but with no further explanation.

[BobLevine]

Dov Isaacs

(And of course, InDesign doesn't let you choose a form field's font and thus, full font embedding in PDF exported from InDesign is effectively irrelevant!)

Not natively of course, but let's give our friend Ariel a plug:

FormMagic | Id-Extras.com

[Test Screen Name]

Find a printer who has kept up to date with the last 20 years.

[Test Screen Name]

If you write subset below: 97%, you will almost always get a subset. It's virtually impossible to use more than 97% of a font.

If you write subset below: 0%, that seems to mean never subset. But perhaps it's magic for "always".

In fact it is getting almost irrelevant as OpenType fonts are always subsetted, as I understand, as they are otherwise too big.

Anyway, none of this affects whether your printer uses the right font or not, subsetting is not at all relevant. Embedding is what matters.

[Test Screen Name]

By the way if you updated the font yourself take great care to update the various unique IDs or it's pretty certain the wrong version will get used sometime.

[Raphaël Freeman]

no, this is a commercial Adobe font that I purchased from Linotype. There was a serious bug in the typeface that Adobe fixed and I asked Linotype to ship me the latest version which they did. Since I do 95% of my typesetting in Arno, it’s important to me that the latest (fixed) version is printed.

But how can you embed a font in InDesign?

[Test Screen Name]

So far as I know, InDesign will always embed a font (use export, not print to PDF).