sum of ink exceeding maximum value of standard ISO 320%

[Good Venture]

Hi,

I'm getting this query from the printer: 

"sum of ink exceeding maximum value of standard ISO 320% (350% in special conditions). Printing with supplied artwork may cause an problem with stability of colours on the printout or/and can cause sheets to stick together in stock. In current case sum of ink equals 355 %."

 

Does anyone know how export the image from photoshop, or what settings of InDesign I can change to avoid this? 

 

Thanks!

[Willi Adelberger]

Did you place a CMYK image into InDesign. If a CMYK image is edited after conversion to CMYK it can happen that the maximum value is exceeded.

In InDesign are normally RGB images imported and converted to CMYK with the final PDF export or later with the APPE (Adobe PDF Print Engine). In Photoshop you need to turn on the CMYK Print Preview when you work with RGB images for print.

[Good Venture]

The image was originally palced as RGB, and file exported as PDF/X-4:2010  standard, with colour conversion to CMYK Convert to destination (Preserve Numbers). 

Not sure how the ink coverage came out 355%. I am asking myself, is there anything one could do directly on the image in Photoshop to avoid this, or is there a way to tell InDesign to limit the ink coverage of specific assets? 

[rob day]

The image was originally palced as RGB, and file exported as PDF/X-4:2010 standard, with colour conversion to CMYK Convert to destination (Preserve Numbers). Not sure how the ink coverage came out 355%.

Hi @Good Venture , You really should not have to use color correction to lower total ink—the total ink limit is enforced on a conversion by the CMYK destination profile, so if the requirement 320% or less and you are getting 355% on a conversion from placed RGB images,  you have likely used the wrong Destination profile on the Export. Here you can see assigning Coated GRACoL, which has a total ink allowance of 350% produces Total Ink alerts:

But Assigning ISO Coated v2 300% has no violations

[Good Venture]

In my case, I've actually changed the total ink limit in Photoshop by creating a new profile based on the colour profile I normally use for printing (FOGRA 51, profile requested from the printer). Something analogue to what you are suggesting here? 

[rob day]

I've actually changed the total ink limit in Photoshop by creating a new profile based on the colour profile

How did you do that? Photoshop’s Color Settings’ Custom CMYK lets you create legacy curved based profiles, but those profiles would not have any relation to modern profile like FOGRA51, which is capured from a press sheet off of a press running to the FOGRA standard. You can create a profile like that and set an Ink Limit, but you would lose all of the other FOGRA 51 profile properties.

FOGRA51’s TAC is already 300%, so if you are using it as the Destination profile for an RGB-to-CMYK conversion, you should not be getting 355% Total Ink.

https://www.color.org/registry/index.xalter

[Good Venture]

Hi Rob, 

I did that by going to: Edit -> Color Settings... -> in the "Working Spaces" area, under the "CMYK" dropdown menu, I selected "Custom..." -> lowered the Total Ink Limit to under 300% (280% I think if remember well). [I probably did something wrong!]

I understand what you say, and I agree it is strange that the Total Ink reported from printer is 355%, when FOGRA51's TAC is set to 300%. And yes, the website you linked is where I downloaded the colour profile from. 

At this point, I suspect the aggregator is using a different printer for that specific product, which may be the reason the colour profile is not respected. 

[rob day]

I selected "Custom..." -> lowered the Total Ink Limit to under 300% (280% I think if remember well). [I probably did something wrong!]

When you do that you are creating an entirely new (legacy) profile—you are not editing FOGRA51. The custom profile would have your custom 280% TAC, but it would also have different color gamut, dot gain, black generation, etc.

I understand what you say, and I agree it is strange that the Total Ink reported from printer is 355%,

Did you check your PDF before sending it out? If your first capture is from your PDF, it does look like you are providing a PDF with 300+ TAC

[Good Venture]

When you do that you are creating an entirely new (legacy) profile—you are not editing FOGRA51. The custom profile would have your custom 280% TAC, but it would also have different color gamut, dot gain, black generation, etc.

Got it, so there is no way to change TAC without changing colour profile.

Did you check your PDF before sending it out? If your first capture is from your PDF, it does look like you are providing a PDF with 300+ TAC

Yes, the first capture is from my PDF, and I had the same problem with another artwork this week. Both PDF uses FOGRA51 colour profile as downloaded from the ICC Profile Registry, which has 300% TAC. 

 

I'm attaching a screen grab from the other artwork I'm having issues with. You can see the colour profile corresponds, but the ink limit is exceeded. How is that possible? 

 

[rob day]

You can see the colour profile corresponds, but the ink limit is exceeded. How is that possible?

The Output Intent would not limit the ink coverage—once the image or object is converted CMYK it is possible to increase the total ink via a color correction or by placing a CMYK image that was converted using a different profile. Here the top image is AdobeRGB and the bottom image was converrted to US Sheetfed Coated and placed with no profile—its TAC is 350%, and because it is DocumentCMYK it will Export to CMYK unchanged:

[Good Venture]

I'm sorry but there is something I'm missing from your example. Did export a PDF with two images that are using two different colour spaces, and not converting the final PDF output? 

In my case I would like that any image placed in the InDesign document (CMYK,RGB) will convert to the same profile destination FOGRA51. 

What I normally do is export the file with this setting:

 

[rob day]

here is something I'm missing from your example ... I would like that any image placed...will convert

With your PDF/X-4 Export settings, only color objects with profiles that conflict with PSO Coated v3 would be converted on the Export. So if an image link is listed as Document CMYK in the Link Info panel, it will export with its CMYK values unchanged—there will be no conversion because the source and destination profiles are the same.

Here the InDesign document’s CMYK assignment is PSO Coated v3, both images are CMYK with the same CMYK values.. The bottom version has the US Sheetfed Coated profile assigned, so on your export its values will be converted from US Sheetfed Coated to to PSO Coated v3 — InDesign‘s Separation Preview shows the image’s total ink as less than 300%:

The top version has no embedded profile, so it is treated as Document CMYK and its values export unchanged—including any values that exceed the ink limit:

[rob day]

Or consider this example, where I made the conversion to PSO Coated in Photoshop, and added a curve adjustment layer after the CMYK conversion. If I place the image with its embedded profile and hide the adjustment layer there are no ink limit violations:

But if I turn on the adjustment layer, the post CMYK color correction has pushed the black point over the 300% ink limit:

[Good Venture]

Thank you for clarifying. So, when imported to InDesign, any CMYK image using a profile that does not limit the ink sum to 300% will not automatically be converted to the profile "PSO Coated V3" that I'm using in the export section. 

Will that be the same case if the exporting options are the following? 

would this process impact the images that are already in the "PSO Coated V3" output profile, or would the be converted back and forth from RGB to CMYK? 

[rob day]

So, when imported to InDesign, any CMYK image using a profile that does not limit the ink sum to 300% will not automatically be converted to the profile "PSO Coated V3" that I'm using in the export section.

No, an image with any embedded profile (the profile listed in Link Info), that conflicts with the export Destination profile will force a color conversion on Export. The conversion would be from the conflicting embedded profile to the destination profile.

Placed RGB would by definition have a conflicting profile, and would always convert to the Destination CMYK profile’s ink limit.

[Good Venture]

No, an image with any embedded profile (the profile listed in Link Info), that conflicts with the export Destination profile will force a color conversion on Export. The conversion would be from the conflicting embedded profile to the destination profile.

Is that true in either of the following cases? Both when choosing "Colour Conversion: Convert to Destination", or "Colour Conversion: (Preserve Numbers)"? 

[rob day]

Yes.

Color Conversion (Preserve Numbers) only protects native CMYK Swatch and color values from conversions. InDesign native  CMYK color exports unchanged even if you select an Export Destination that is different than the InDesign document’s assigned profile—placed files with conflicting profiles still get converted.

If the Export Destination is Document CMYK,  Convert to Destination and Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)  produce the same result.

[rob day]

How is that possible?

Another way it can happen is by using a Transparency Effect like Multiply when blending dark value colors—but it doesn’t look like you are doing that?

[reproo2773183]

Is it possible Good Venture is only changing the Profile in the Color Settings of the Apps and not actually using it to Convert?

[rob day · Accepted solution]

Yes, changing the Color Settings Working CMYK space wouldn’t have any affect on an existing document’s color management (unless the document was created with no profile assignments—the CMYK CM Policy set to Off).

Total ink management is another good reason to place RGB and make the conversion to a final CMYK Destination on Export—if the total ink requirement changes you can simply change the ID doc’s assigned CMYK profile before exporting and get the correct ink limit on the PDF export conversion.

You still have to watch out for certain transparency effects when the document’s Transparency Blend Space is set to CMYK. In my last example, the placed RGB image is converted to CMYK, and then the Multiply effect is added, forcing the total ink over the assigned profile’s limit.

When the blend space is RGB the conversion happens after the blending effect:

[reproo2773183]

I was thinking Good Venture may be creating a new Profile in Photoshop and or choosing a Profile in Color Settings but not actually Converting to that Profile nor Assigning the New Profile. I've seen people assume that changing the Color Settings actually changes the file, without realising it does nothing..

[Good Venture]

No. In my case, the document was created with an assigned colour space profile FOGRA51.

[Good Venture · Accepted solution]

Thank you for your answer, was very useful, and the link! 

I've also found this tutorial helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcBrmAQqc9c&ab_channel=GrPrint

[Laubender]

Hi @Good Venture ,

also check if an effect is applied to the image or its container frame that adds extra color to the image's pixels.

Remove the effect then…

FWIW:

Usually a printing company's prepress department could tackle the issue by converting your PDF with a special color server using Device Link technology so that the TAC does not exceed a certain amount of color without changing the appearance of the image in an unacceptable way…

Regards,
Uwe Laubender
( Adobe Community Expert )

[TheREAL_Jimmy]

My cheat to this...

Get the eyedroper tool and place it over your heavy ink area.

In the "Info" pop up window, select "Total Ink Coverage".

Convert to LAB Color mode.

Convet back to CMYK.

This resets the dark areas to default, print ready, CMYK.

Check Info... there's a side by side comparison of then/now of the image.