Thick letter L in pdf

[Guest]

Hi Again

when i export an indesign file to pdf, any letter L's in the text appear to be very thick and stand out like a sore thumb. is there any reason for this and is it possible to ge rid of this problem.

thanks in advance

Phil

[shelleydove]

Sometimes you have to outline text. It's extremely important if you're sending to printers who don't have the same fonts. I usually only outline logos. Thanks to whoever posted the work around. It's definitely not an easy fix, but is doable on logos and small amounts of text which is all I really ever outline anyway. I usually just include a reference file and leave a note for the printer to call me with any questions or printing issues. There will always be professionals who don't agree, but I still consider myself to be one.

[Willi Adelberger]

If you embed fonts, no outlining is needed. Don't outline fonts except for logos.

[Peter Spier]

As long as you are not using restricted fonts they will automatically be embedded in PDF that is exported from ID. No need to outline.

[Dov Isaacs]

If you are using a PDF workflow, it doesn't make a difference at all what fonts your printer has or has not.

The fonts are embedded in the PDF file!

          - Dov

[rob day]

I've just skimmed this thread, but don't see any mention of lost hinting, which I assume is cause of type display problems anytime a character is outlined? For the posters who think that lack of hinting can be remedied by the application—doesn't seem likely:

Font hinting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

While retina displays are relatively high res they are still significantly lower than print. MacBook Retinas run at around 220ppi

[markh77187]

it seems there is still a lot of discussion going here despite the question being answered earlier on.  The issue is simply down to Acrobats settings:

Acrobat's Preferences > Page Display > Rendering > "enhance thin lines" turn this off and the problem is solved.  Nothing to do with font choices, outlining or not - it's just that Acrobat's setting makes it look like crap. Simple and easy fix that does'nt mean having to change your workflow.

[shelleydove]

Thank you! I'll try it!

[shelleydove]

I don't have that option under rendering in Acrobat.

[G_ery]

GUYS, it is really simple!!! (Thanks to the guy who said you need more anchors I found this silly simple solution in CS5.)

1 - After you convert to outlines.

2 - (Ctrl+A) Select all.

3 - Object > Path > Add anchors

SOLVED!

P. S

I accept beers too

[Willi Adelberger]

G_ery schrieb:

GUYS, it is really simple!!! (Thanks to the guy who said you need more anchors I found this silly simple solution in CS5.)

1 - After you convert to outlines.

2 - (Ctrl+A) Select all.

3 - Object > Path > Add anchors

SOLVED!

P. S

I accept beers too

Nonsens, it is very simple if you don't outline fonts. Why should you do so?

And the command you are recommending is a command from Illustrator, not from InDesign. That would mean that someone has to open an InDesign PDF in Illustrator. Such a recommendation is wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Only PDF and EPS files created in Illustrator with editing capacities can be opened in Illustrator without destroying them. No InDesign PDFs should be opened in Illustrator.

I think you have accepted to many beers before you have written this text, otherwise I cannot imagine how you could get this idea.

[G_ery]

First, because our printer requires everything to be outlined and they have a clear policy of no embedded fonts. 

Second, of course I am talking about illustrator and PDFs created from illustrator (from the original .ai ) i don't see what is wrong about it. No need to use ID in my case.

Third, this nonsense as you call it has solved my problem with bold ells so I decided to share it so it may be useful to others.

I am not a graphic designer and was happy to share something that can solve a problem. I don't want to brag about some embed vs non-embed or fonts vs outlines.

I was really not expecting such a response.

[Dov Isaacs]

Gery,

The reason you are evoking these responses is that users on this forum are trying to assist you.

An arbitrary and capricious requirement by your printer that “everything be outlined“ and a blanket “clear policy of no embedded fonts” is a clear indication that your printer is absolutely not following best industry PDF print publishing workflow practice and brings into question their knowledge, training, and reliability. The advice to embed fonts in PDF is not just from Adobe, but is recommended by all national and local print industry associations and standards bodies that I know of. Outlining text to avoid font embedding typically yields lower quality printed (as well as displayed) output, highly bloated PDF file size and RIP times, and prevents any ability to do last minute text touch-up (last minute price changes, error correction, etc.) with the PDF file.

By the way, this is similar to such “clear policies” that tell the print customer that everything must be converted to CMYK and pre-imposed (as for booklet making).

             - Dov

[Petteri_Paananen]

I couldn´t agree more about that avoiding create outlines but there are some rare cases when you need to do it, even with good printers. I have bumped into following ones:

1) Complex scientific formulas that you don´t understand at all - made with lots of special characters and some weird font, and one tiny change can change the result of the formula dramatically

2) Client wants to use a font with embedding restrictions (those kind of restrictions are insane IMO)

3) You are using completely strange language with peculiar characters (arabic, russian, greece etc) and therefore it´s very hard for you to check that everything is ok with the text. You just get the text from your client, put it into a layout and make a PDF. With openType fonts I have used embedding but with older TrueTypes or PostScript fonts I have outlined text.

In all those examples something went wrong with printing process, even though the printer has been very well and modernly equipped...

Outlining text solved  problems in those cases.

But as I said, in normal circumstances I try to avoid character outlining as much as I can....

ps. If I remember correctly, InDesign´s "predecessor" PageMaker does not have text outlining option at all....=)

[Dov Isaacs]

I couldn´t agree more about that avoiding create outlines but there are some rare cases when you need to do it, even with good printers. I have bumped into following ones:

1) Complex scientific formulas that you don´t understand at all - made with lots of special characters and some weird font, and one tiny change can change the result of the formula dramatically

2) Client wants to use a font with embedding restrictions (those kind of restrictions are insane IMO)

3) You are using completely strange language with peculiar characters (arabic, russian, greece etc) and therefore it´s very hard for you to check that everything is ok with the text. You just get the text from your client, put it into a layout and make a PDF. With openType fonts I have used embedding but with older TrueTypes or PostScript fonts I have outlined text.

In all those examples something went wrong with printing process, even though the printer has been very well and modernly equipped...

Outlining text solved  problems in those cases.

But as I said, in normal circumstances I try to avoid character outlining as much as I can....

ps. If I remember correctly, InDesign´s "predecessor" PageMaker does not have text outlining option at all....=)

For the record:

(1) PDF is a Final Form File Format. It is irrelevant whether the characters are Western Latin, Pig Latin, Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, or Koosbanian. Unless you purposely try to muck with the text, whatever was put in the PDF with its embedded fonts is what will display in Acrobat and RIP for printing. Printers should not be doing stupid things like mucking with text in a PDF file or even worse, opening a PDF file in Illustrator “just to check things out.” Illustrator is absolutely not a PDF file editor!!

(2) For virtually every font that I've encountered with “protections” (either physical bits and/or end user license agreement terms) that prevent embedding the font in a PDF file, there are also terms in the license that also prohibit getting around those restrictions by outlining or even rasterizing text. In my 25 years here at Adobe, I've seen quite a few font licenses, for better or worse. What we advise customers to do is simply say no to fonts and font vendors that don't allow embedding in a PDF file. Such fonts are effectively useless for modern day graphic arts workflows. You can always find a similar font without such ludicrous restrictions.

(3) Clearly, there is a big difference between preparing a print-ready PDF file for submission to a printer versus your doing a layout in a language you don't understand with a fonts supporting same. But still, how does outlining text solve any problems?

In our experience in investigating font issues over the years here at Adobe, when there are problems rendering text for printing from a PDF file that displays perfectly fine in Acrobat, we typically find that the printer is the cause of the problem trying to proactively fix something that isn't broken by using way out-of-date PDF workflow tools or as indicated above, opening a PDF file in Illustrator and resaving same. That is a recipe for disaster for not only text and font issues, but also color and other imaging issues. Again, Illustrator is not a PDF editor or inspector and should not be used as such!!!

Finally, the primary reason why text outlining is provided in both Illustrator and InDesign was to allow for text manipulation and artistic effects that cannot be applied to text rendered strictly with fonts, not to satisfy the paranoia of Luddite printers who wish to shift blame on their customers. Such mucking with text outlines is often done to customize logos, for example!

              - Dov

[Petteri_Paananen]

I mostly agree... but that said -  I would be very happy to live in a perfect world where every client and printer works exactly like I want.

However in real world, situation is not that great. On these challenging times, if I start to be difficult and make demands to my clients/sub-contractors... I soon will find myself to be out of jobs.

But of course I will do my best....=)

[Dov Isaacs]

For better or worse, the print industry is having rough times these days.

Although printers used to get away with “my way or the highway,” they really cannot afford to act as Luddites in modern times. The fact is that there are many printers who will gladly service your needs without acting like spoiled prima donnas!

           - Dov

[Petteri_Paananen]

I´m sure there is...

my challenge is very often that same client that hires me as a designer, decides where the job will be printed. If it´s one of those "prima donnas" I can always try to recommend better one but as they say "money walks and b*shit talks" - which (at least in my case) usually means that the cheapest printing offer wins, everything else comes far behind.

This conversation has gone a bit off the track...sorry for that, but subject is interesting and I´m sure there´s lots of creative workers who struggles with these same issues - being as a middle man between clients and printers... this could be worth it´s own thread.

[Willi Adelberger]

In such a discussion helps the fact, that there is a standard for print files, PDF/X with its flairs. This standard specifies that fonts have to be embedded (and not to be outlined).

And if a printer wants to outline fonts, he shall do it himself on his own risk from Adobe Acrobat Pro and do it via Preflight Profile Repair. Never from InDesign, as you will loose a lot of content in InDesign.

And when it comes to the fat L, it is a screen problem, not a printing issue anyway.

[Willi Adelberger]

G_ery schrieb:

First, because our printer requires everything to be outlined and they have a clear policy of no embedded fonts.

Second, of course I am talking about illustrator and PDFs created from illustrator (from the original .ai ) i don't see what is wrong about it. No need to use ID in my case.

Third, this nonsense as you call it has solved my problem with bold ells so I decided to share it so it may be useful to others.

I am not a graphic designer and was happy to share something that can solve a problem. I don't want to brag about some embed vs non-embed or fonts vs outlines.

I was really not expecting such a response.

1. Run away from this printer or don't follow his policy as in most cases they would accept correct PDFs.
2. You talk about Illustrator in an InDesign forum, that means, that you are recommending to open InDesign PDFs in Illustrator. Look at the context.

[taschig]

This fix worked for us today (after much frustration!)

To fix bolded 'I's and 'i's in PDFs:

1. Open PDF in Illustrator

2. Select all objects/text

3. Under the 'Objects' menu select 'Flatten Transparency'

4. Select 'Medium Resolution' from the dropdown menu

5. Make sure to check the 'Convert All Text to Outlines' box is selected! Hit OK.

6. Save PDF as normal

Hope this helps someone!

[Willi Adelberger]

taschig schrieb:

This fix worked for us today (after much frustration!)

To fix bolded 'I's and 'i's in PDFs:

1. Open PDF in Illustrator

2. Select all objects/text

3. Under the 'Objects' menu select 'Flatten Transparency'

4. Select 'Medium Resolution' from the dropdown menu

5. Make sure to check the 'Convert All Text to Outlines' box is selected! Hit OK.

6. Save PDF as normal

Hope this helps someone!

why are you writng such terrible, file destroying nonsense. Nobody should follow your advice. Illustrator is not a common PDF editor. You will destroy the appearance only by opening the file in Illustrator. Don't do that,!!!

‌

[Dov Isaacs]

Wilhelm Georg Adelberger wrote:

taschig schrieb:

This fix worked for us today (after much frustration!)

To fix bolded 'I's and 'i's in PDFs:

1. Open PDF in Illustrator

2. Select all objects/text

3. Under the 'Objects' menu select 'Flatten Transparency'

4. Select 'Medium Resolution' from the dropdown menu

5. Make sure to check the 'Convert All Text to Outlines' box is selected! Hit OK.

6. Save PDF as normal

Hope this helps someone!

why are you writng such terrible, file destroying nonsense. Nobody should follow your advice. Illustrator is not a common PDF editor. You will destroy the appearance only by opening the file in Illustrator. Don't do that,!!!

+1 and amen! That is the worst advice I've seen in a long time. Adobe certainly does not endorse this in any way, shape, or form. It likely will do more damage than good!

         - Dov

[mblum]

Dov- I have to commend you! I officially "signed in" as a user just to say that! lol.. You've been responding to this thread since 2008???! My search started with "why are the l's on this application darker?"

[wlym]

8 years later and Adobe Acrobat still suffers from this problem. How many times will I have to explain to my clients that their logo is okay "it's just Acrobat" or "are you on a Mac, then open the PDF in Preview!"?

How is it that Apple's Preview can render these PDFs properly?

[BobLevine]

And eight years later, people are still converting text to outlines when they shouldn't be.

BTW, if your issue is with Acrobat, you might want to pop over to the Acrobat forum.