Turkey is now Türkiye, but in all caps it's TÜRKİYE

[Kenneth C. Benson]

I'm working on an NGO publication that lists the names of most countries of the world. As of June, the leaders of Turkey ask that the name be spelled "Türkiye" (https://turkiye.un.org/en/184798-turkeys-name-changed-turkiye). On that page, there's an image of the UN name tag, showing the name in all caps: TÜRKİYE. Note that the capital letter I is dotted.

I'm using Indesign, and my publication has a table of contents that lists the names of countries. The country names are in all caps, but the TOC shows then in initial caps. Indesign can change case via formatting, so the paragraph style for the country names forces UC (but the underlying text is initial caps). The TOC sees the unformatted text (initial caps) and aggregates the country names in their unformatted state with page numbers. This has worked nicely for several years now.

Türkiye's new name has a problem, though. There doesn't seem to be a lower case equivalent for a dotted capital I. Or maybe I just can't find it. Or maybe the fonts I'm using don't have it (Chaparral Pro and Myriad Pro). So I can get the country name right (by using a caps dotted I), but the TOC displays the country name as "Türkİye" instead of "Türkiye".

I can change the TOC, but I have to remember to change it every time I regenerate the TOC. Does anyone know if there is a lower-case dotted i glyph that will format in all caps to an upper case dotted I? It would probably look just like a regular lower case i.

[jane-e]

@Kenneth C. Benson 

Can you tell us how are you entering the capital "i" with a dot? With Alt codes? In the Glyphs panel?

(I tried to put it here, but my iPad keyboard is not supporting it.)

One possibility would be to use GREP. Is it okay to move your post to the InDesign forum?

 Jane

[Kenneth C. Benson]

Thanks, Jane

Yes, from the glyphs panel. This is Chaparral Pro Bold Display. This character is probably not in all fonts, and perhaps some fonts have a lower case dotted i that transforms into an uppercase dotted I with UC formatting (but I'm stuck with Chaparral for this design).

Unfortunately, the dot on the capital I in Chaparral is fatter than the umlaut dots.

In the screenshot below, the text you're seeing is typed in sentence caps (Türkİye), but formatted in upper case. The dotted I, though, has no lower case equivalent. If I use an ordinary lc dotted i, UC formatting changes it to an ordinary dotless uc I.

A GREP style is a great idea (in the TOC paragraph style, replace "Türkİye" with "Türkiye"). This will solve the problem for the printed TOC. This report is also released electronically (last year's report: https://www.insead.edu/sites/default/files/assets/dept/fr/gtci/GTCI-2021-Report.pdf), and the PDF has an interactive bookmarks TOC. I can change it in the bookmarks from within the PDF, but I have to change it each time I generate a new PDF.

By all means, please move this to the Indesign forum. I was going to wait a week and then repost there, but moving it is even better.

[jane-e]

@Kenneth C. Benson 

I've moved your post to the InDesign forum.

Does it work for you if the glyph to the right (highlighted) is used in the TOC?

Jane

[Kenneth C. Benson]

That's a small caps dotted i. I attached an Indesign file copied straight from the report.

[Kenneth C. Benson]

Actually, I take it back about GREP. I haven't set up a GREP style for awhile, but now that I'm looking GREP is for applying a character style to found text. No amount of formatting will fix this problem. A GREP search would do it (I could search the TOC for "Türkİye" and replace with "Türkiye"), but a regular, non-GREP search would accomplish the same thing. And a search/replace would be no less work than just editing the TOC each time it's generated. There's only one Türkiye to change, and it's just one character that's wrong. Maybe you're thinking of some application of GREP that I don't know about?

[Joel Cherney · Accepted solution]

Which version of Chaparral exactly are you using?  Also, which language are you using for your installation of ID? Either one of those facts might be important here, as I went and tried this with Minion Pro on my InDesign ME install and it worked exactly as I would have expected. I should also add that it did not work if the language was marked as English; it has to be marked as Turkish. 

[Kenneth C. Benson]

Hi Joel

I had a feeling you would pick up on this question.

I'm not sure how to find a font version, but it's coming from Creative Cloud, so it should be the most recent (right?).

I'm using the default language version (English? Western European? not sure what it's called). I don't think I want to switch to ID ME, especially at this point in the job (it should be on the INSEAD website on Monday). The report is written in English, but they name the countries according to UN designation. Clients are in Europe and speak mostly French and English, so they want to see "recognise", not "recognize". The language used on paragraph styles is English: UK, but I've tried formatting just that one head in Turkish (with a character override) and it doesn't make a difference. Formatting "Türkiye" in Turkish in all caps results in "TÜRKIYE", not "TÜRKİYE".

Is it possible there's a 2nd lower case dotted i that converts case to an uppercase dotted İ? Or is this just an algorithm thing, something that works the way the Turks want it to in ME, and the way Europeans want it to in the regular version?

[Joel Cherney]

Pleased to be a) utterly predictable, and b) hopefully of some assistance to you. 

Like you, I don't want to switch versions at this very second due to a massive thing I have due in just a few hours, in a wide variety of languages, most of which are going to require me to have the ME edition installed. So I can't test it in EN-UK InDesign at this very second. I hope it's not the version causing your issue, though. It oughn't be; my understanding was that the under-the-hood stuff was identical across InDesign localizations, and it was just the UI and toolset that changed.

So, anyways, I went and installed Chaparral Pro from fonts.adobe.com so that my version would match yours. I keyed in a pair of perfectly normal Latin-script lowercase dotted "i"s from my plain-vanilla 101-key QWERTY keyboard. I marked one as Turkish and left the other in English (UK). Then I toggled the Case button on and off. The one marked as Turkish produced a dotted capital I, while the British English one produced a dotless capital I. 

So, you have it set in allcaps in your body text, but want it set with init cap in the TOC, right? I would have assumed that a character override in the body text would work just fine. You should be able to key in a lowercase dotted i, mark that lowercase i as Turkish, and whack the Change Case button. Changing the language should change the glyph used.

That may be another avenue to pursue; are you going to Type -> Change Case? Or using the button on the control bar? You don't actually want to replace your lowercase i with an uppercase İ, I'd expect; you want to turn on OpenType capitals. Does it work any different on your side if you use Control-Shift-K to make your Turkish-marked lowercase i into an uppercase İ? Or if you get there by going through the hamburger options icon on the Character panel? Or, lastly, if you open up the InDesign document that I attached to this post? Because, if my MENA version really is doing something that your UK version can't, then you should certainly be able to take what I did in my MENA version and paste it into your document and have it work correctly. (Unless you've found a UK-localization-specific bug, I suppose.)

[Kenneth C. Benson]

In the Indesign file you made for me you mentioned OT All caps, and I wondered if there was a difference between OT All caps and the "TT" button I've been pressing in the Control bar. When I opened the Character menu and looked at the OpenType submenu, Contextual Alternates was showing a minus sign (which I think means mixed formatting). I checked it, changed the language to Turkish, and now it works!

Thanks, Joel!

[Peter Spier]

Hi Ken,

Just tried this with the US English version of InDesign ver. 16 which I had open. If I type an ordinary lowercase i in Chapparal Pro or Minion Pro and set the language attribute to Turkish it converts, as Joel's did, to a dotted capital when I use the All Caps command.

[Kenneth C. Benson]

Yes, somehow I introduced a Contextual Overrides character override into the text, and that was causing the problem. I never really paid attention to Contextual Overrides, not sure what they are.