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Type1 Fonts and Oldstyle Figures

Contributor ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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This feels like it might be a silly question, but here goes. We have some old files we did not create to which we have to make some changes and we're trying to decide whether to swap out the Type1 fonts.

 

We work almost exclusively in Windows and the files were created on a Mac in InDesign CC 2015 and use the Minion Type1 font in main text. The PDF sent with the InDesign file has oldstyle figures throughout. Opening the InDesign files on the PC it doesn't show old oldstyle figures, and looking in the PDF using both Acrobat's editing and PitStop, it shows the oldstyle figures as just Minion-Regular and not the small cap and oldstyle figures font.

 

How can that be?

 

Thanks!

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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You should use OTF fonts and not T1 fonts. You have to change anyway soon. Only OpenType supports different numeral types.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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Hi @KenWK , If you check the font usage in the InDesign file are the Type 1 Minion versions listed but missing? Can you show a capture of the ID Find/Replace Font dialog

 

Screen Shot 5.png

 

 

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Contributor ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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Thanks for answering, Willi. I understand about the Type1 fonts but the client needs the book prepared for immediate reprint and doesn't have time at the moment for checking everything with the significant changes that will occur switching to OTF.

 

Rob, As you can see from the screen shot below (taken on the PC) we have the fonts loaded but the old style figures don't show. There are no font changes on the numbers in InDesign so I'm not sure how they cold be in the PDF. I was wondering if there might be something on the Mac (they way it handles fonts?) that resolves things and uses the old style figures...somehow?? But then, what would the InDesign setting be?

 

Either that, or the InDesign files we received did NOT create the PDF they sent.

 

Thanks a bunch for replying,

Ken

Capture.PNG

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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I think you're seeing the difference between how old PostScript fonts and today's OpenType versions handle numbers.

 

Referring to your last screen capture, to have old style numbers with a PostScript font required a separate font, Minion Small Caps & Oldstyle Figures.

 

Today's OpenType version of Minion Pro has the oldstyle figures built into the main fonts. Just select the numbers, then select OpenType / Proportional Oldstyle. Or create a character style set to use Proportional Oldstyle and apply it to the numbers.

 

But with PostScript, you need to have that additional Oldstyle Figures font installed, and then search for numbers in the document and apply the Oldstyle font to the figures. A character style set to use the Oldstyle font would help speed up the task, and you can also use a GREP to apply the character style automatically.

 

@Willi Adelberger's suggestion to migrate to Minion Pro (OpenType) is the best solution because it solves the problem not just for today, but in the future, too. Your PostScript fonts are scheduled to be discontinued very soon, either in a few weeks when 2023 is launched at Adobe Max, or a few weeks later. But it's not long away from now!

 

Bevi Chagnon | PubCom | Designer & Technologist for Accessible Documents
| Books & Classes | Accessible InDesign | Accessible PDFs | Accessible MS Office |

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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quote

... I was wondering if there might be something on the Mac (they way it handles fonts?) that resolves things and uses the old style figures...somehow??

By @KenWK

 

Since the file uses PostScript fonts, migrating the file to a Mac could be disastrous. PostScript fonts are unique to their operating system, and Minion/Mac could create slightly different line endings and reflow from the original Minion/Windows.

 

The Mac could also drop some significant glyphs, such as punctuation, symbols, and foreign characters.

 

And it's not the solution, either.

 

FYI, only OpenType fonts can be installed on either Macs or Windows computers and contain the same glyphs regardless of the platform.

 

(And why we're gently encouraging you to switch to OpenType fonts, if possible. <grin>)

 

Bevi Chagnon | PubCom | Designer & Technologist for Accessible Documents
| Books & Classes | Accessible InDesign | Accessible PDFs | Accessible MS Office |

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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>> FYI, only OpenType fonts can be installed on either Macs or Windows computers and contain the same glyphs regardless of the platform.

I believe Windows TrueType fonts are also fully cross-platform compatible...

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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... I believe Windows TrueType fonts are also fully cross-platform compatible...


In my expeience, Peter, a document created on a Mac with Mac TrueType fonts will open correctly on a PC but a Windows document using Windows TrueType fonts will have ragging and kerning issues on a Mac.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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Depends on which type of TrueType you have: OpenType/TrueType (Unicode) or original TrueType.

 

Most of the recent TrueTypes are cross-platform, but not all. And don't depend upon all Windows TrueType working on both platforms...it's still a mixture of technologies that ships with Windows.

 

We're a cross-platform shop and never assume that they will work, or not have reflow issues.

 

22 years after Unicode/OpenType was declared the computer industry standard and it's still a dark art!

 

Bevi Chagnon | PubCom | Designer & Technologist for Accessible Documents
| Books & Classes | Accessible InDesign | Accessible PDFs | Accessible MS Office |

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Contributor ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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I understand how OTF OS figs work and the only way I knew of to get the OS figs in the old Minion Type1 PS fonts was to make a font change. But the PDF we received didn't have any font changes so I was trying to confirm that there wasn't something happening on the Mac that I didn't know about.

 

Welllll, there isn't. Today the publisher sent us the fonts from the original comp (which would have been helpful initially) and they included a Type1 Mac font that has at least the same name as the usual Minion BUT has the old style figures right in it.

 

Oy-vey!

 

Thanks everyone for your time and effort!!

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Oct 06, 2022 Oct 06, 2022

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Even if there are not currently proper styles, you should be able to do a GREP Find/Replace for figures and change the font on just those.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 06, 2022 Oct 06, 2022

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While I am in total agreement with moving to OpenType here are a few things to be aware of that are not common knowledge.

  1. This one is going away with new versions of ID but if you put Windows Type 1 fonts in the InDesign fonts folder on a Mac, they should work...the reverse (Mac Type 1 on Windows) will not.
  2. You will be very hard-pressed to find any Windows Truetype font that won't work on a Mac. In fact, just about anything in the last 15 years is actually an OpenType font because...
  3. There are two "flavors" of OpenType and the only way for a user to really know the difference is by the file extension (TTF or OTF). 

Bottom line: There is practically no reason in the year 2022 to have any problem with fonts. There are no font foundries that I know of that are putting out anything other than OpenType and this has been the case for a long time. OpenType was developed more than 20 years ago.

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Community Expert ,
Oct 05, 2022 Oct 05, 2022

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Don't put off the inevitable. Change the doc to OTF versions of Minion and do the page checking to make sure all the characters survived. If the document is founded on Paragraph Styles and Character Styles then this shouldn't be too bad on time and Quality Control.

Mike Witherell

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Contributor ,
Oct 06, 2022 Oct 06, 2022

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Will likely make these changes on our single Mac for this reprint then update the file if client thinks the title is worth the cost.

 

And Bob: "There is practically no reason in the year 2022 to have any problem with fonts."

 

Ever since the data general days with 512k diskdrives the size of cloths washing machines, fonts have been a pain in the a_ _! LOL! I don't think that is every going to REALLY go away. Well, not at least for those of us who get all the "crappy old files" that were put together will less than decent forsite as to what the next guy will have to deal with.

 

Thanks again everyone!

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Community Expert ,
Oct 06, 2022 Oct 06, 2022

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Well, I won't argue about how much of a PITA they used to be. Now? I don't even use a font manager, any more and I've reached a point where I'll tell anyone sending me files to be worked on that if they include any platform-specific fonts, they will be replaced.

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