Why does adding a page create a three-page spread?

[Thomas_Calvin]

My parent pages are a two-page spread. I have one page, to which the appropriate parent page has been applied. When I insert a page break on that first page, InDesign inexplicably creates a three-page horizontal spread.

[Mike Witherell]

Hi Thomas,

Could you post a screenshot of your...

File > Document Setup (to see whether Facing Pages is on or off)

and

Pages panel menu button > Flyout menu (to see whether Shuffle is off or on. Both shuffles should be on.)

And why is your blank parent page set to one page when the document is set to two? Or is it?

And under Preferences > Type > is Smart Text Reflow off or on?

[Thomas_Calvin]

Thanks, Mike. Shuffle is on.

This document hasn't exhibited this behavior before. I created a "new" document by saving the original as something else, then deleting all the pages except the first. So nothing should have changed in the setup. Here's the setup panel.

 "Smart text reflow" is on, set to "End of story."

Our blank pages do not differ from left to right, and historically our docs did not have a continuous flow through the pages. That's what I'm fixing right now.

[Mike Witherell]

I notice the head of your Pages panel labels the pages as Letter V. Maybe for a while it was an alternate layout.

What happens if you click on Pages panel menu button > View Pages > Vertically ?

Also, if you were to turn on Type menu > Show Hidden Characters

Is it possible that you put in two Page Break commands?

[Thomas_Calvin]

No change. It was set on "alternate layout" for some reason, but evidently that wasn't the problem.

I also changed the blank page to a two-page spread, and this also had no effect.

[Thomas_Calvin]

It looks like there were two page breaks at that point, which indicates two bugs (or two facets of one): With only one page break, there was no second page. With two, there were two pages added but in the wrong placement.

I deleted all page breaks and inserted one. It added one page (but only after I typed some jibberish characters), but added it on the right side... which is wrong.

Adding a second page break (and typing some characters) added a third page, again to the right of the first two and created a bogus three-page spread. And as an added bonus, content flow is broken between the second and third pages:

[Thomas_Calvin]

Well, for anyone who finds this, I found the problem:

In this document's Pages options, "Allow selected spread to shuffle" was on. I've never even noticed this option before, let alone activated it. Deactivating it halted the asinine three-page layout. The question is why this setting, which breaks your layout, would be on by default? I won't even ask why it exists.

Also since the last time I checked, "Allow document pages to shuffle" was turned off.

[Mike Witherell]

Generally, in a typical document, both are switched ON. Allow Document Page to Shuffle and Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle. To set them both back on, be sure to select all the pages first. Selected pages will be lit up in a blue color.

[Thomas_Calvin]

If spread-shuffling is on, how do you get pages to be added in the correct position? I could find no way to restore the proper left/right page cadence except turning this setting off. And then there's still the broken-flow issue.

[rob day]

In this document's Pages options, "Allow selected spread to shuffle" was on. I've never even noticed this option before

The Allow...Shuffle settings are page not document settings.

When you drag a Parent into the Pages panel pay attention to drag icon—this indicates that I am adding the page to the spread, not starting a new spread.

[Thomas_Calvin]

Noted, thanks. But I never drag parent pages into empty space in the Pages area; I only drag parents onto pages.

[rob day]

I only drag parents onto pages.

Every page can have different Allow...Shuffle settings, That might be the source of your Primary Text Frame problems?

[rob day]

Also pay attention to your Primary Text frames’ threading. If the threading is broken Smart Text Reflow might not work.

Threading should not look like this where the Primary text flow is broken:

Should look like this:

Autoflow text:

[Thomas_Calvin]

Thanks. I'm aware of how the flow should look; that's how I illustrated the broken threading in the three-page spread.

I don't see why the reshuffling option would cause all the text frames in a file to be marked as non-primary all of a sudden. I don't ever apply those options in the Pages panel by using a context menu on child pages.

On the other hand, with the profound selection problems in that panel, there's no telling what gets applied to what, as the user operates in various menus inside and outside of the panel.

[rob day]

I don't see why the reshuffling option would cause all the text frames in a file to be marked as non-primary all of a sudden

Don’t see how anyone can help without a sample document showing the problem—I’m not using the latest version, but Primary Text Frames are working as expected here.

Also, a book with gatefold spreads would need to be setup with some 3 page or more spreads—that’s the reason for the option allowing some, but not all, spreads to shuffle:

[Thomas_Calvin]

Thanks. I'm not really questioning the need for the feature (although the term "shuffling" doesn't necessarily seem appropriate). I'm questioning how you're supposed to proceed with building a document with a normal two-page left/right cadence when this feature seems to disable the "normal" behavior (by causing the current spread to get endlessly wider).

As for a sample doc, I attached one. It takes time to strip out proprietary information, so that's not the first course of action when asking a question that may have a known answer.

[rob day]

You’ve drawn a new text frame that is not associated with the Parent on the page—the Primary Frame is there, it just hasn’t been released and is under your frame containing the text.

Shift-Command-Click a Parent Page item to release it and convert it into a Page Item that is linked to its Parent. Or there is the Page Panel’s Override All Master Page Items, which will convert all the page’s Parent Page items:

[Thomas_Calvin]

Thanks, but no; I have not. I have never drawn a frame on a child page. All the frames were derived from the parent pages. Thus the bug report.

This is why I didn't bother stripping down and posting an example document: It merely exhibits the problem. I doubted (although didn't deny entirely) that it would reveal how it arrived at this state.

[rob day]

All the frames were derived from the parent pages

If I change the fill color of your Parent Pages’ Primary Text Frame I get this:

Your text is in a regular text frame—no association with a parent page. Not sure how you got that but there are ways it can happen—if I paste text with no frame selected, a new container text frame would be created to hold the text with no Parent Page association.

If I create 2 new pages at the end of your doc, select the Primary Text Frame, and paste your text I get this:

There are cases where Primary Text Frames are not automatically overridden—in those cases you have to Shift Command Click the Primary Frame in order to override it and add text.

[rob day]

Any chance you are deleting and remaking the Primary Text Fames on the Parent Pages after you added text to the pages? That could do it.

[rob day]

With a Book I can get it to happen if I check Parent Pages in the Book panel’s Synchronize Options, and then make a change to the Primary Frame of one of the document’s that is not the sync source document.

You might think about not checking Parent Pages in Sync Options, or only make a Parent page change to the Sync Source document

If you do include Parent Pages make sure you only make Parent Page edits to the sync master

[Thomas_Calvin]

OK, now that is some good troubleshooting, Rob; thanks. That's the first example of a reproducible case.

But...at this point, the parent pages are pretty much set in stone and I never change them. There's no need to. But this is an interesting discovery.

If I were ever not able to paste text on to a page, I would immediately know something was wrong. I never Shift-Cmd-click a frame; nor do I find it acceptable to expect future maintainers to do so. That's why I've gone to considerable effort to consolidate the entire document into a flow through a single primary frame, and why this defect is a giant PITA.

Nor do I ever paste text without the insertion point settled in the primary frame. So the issue does not arise from pasting text into a void.

[Thomas_Calvin]

[ Where is the Delete button in this forum? ]

[Barb Binder]

Hi @Thomas_Calvin:

First of all, I'm sorry you are facing this.

Secondly, I use primary frames all the time and I've never had them disassociate themselves. I've created the issue by accident, but they've never done it themselves. Thirdly, I don't shuffle pages manually for my long document work. I have never combined both in a single file.

Since you put this on the thread with shuffle question and last I recall, you had not selected all threads and enabled both shuffle commands because you thought you had already figured this out, I'm led to wonder if there isn't a unexpected relationship between manual shuffling and primary frames. 

I'll play with that and what do you mean by a "full-book sync" ? Sync Book or Sync Options?

~Barb

[Thomas_Calvin]

Thanks, Barb. I didn't check every spread in all 10 documents in my book, but I checked quite a few and they all have both shuffle options enabled. I never, ever manually manipulate pages (page order) in the Pages pane. Nor do I add pages there. I always force InDesign to add pages through the auto-adding functionality when text overflows the current page I'm working on. That's how I know when the "primary frame" becomes disassociated: I suddenly get warnings about overset text, which should be impossible.

When I say "full-book sync" I mean syncing the whole book. Every sync option checked, every file selected. Every time.