Working FOGRA39 vs Document FOGRA39 - what are their differences?

[Inélsòre]

Dear all,

I have a question about colour profiles and how they render in printing. 

I have just finished to design the new cover of my musical editions which will hopefully go into print and distribution by the beginning of 2023. The colour of the element on the cover is set up as CMYK (0, 82, 72, 55), and when I export it for printing, the profile is set up to use Working FOGRA39. The printer, though, asked me to use PDF/X-3:2003, which defaults to Document FOGRA39. The result I get both in the PDF on-screen and in the printed proof that I got is noticeably darker than the one using Working FOGRA39. 

Why is this so? 

I recently read the article by David Blatner on CMYK vs RGB, where he suggested using RGB for design, and then use the profile requested by the printer to output the proper colour. In this case, the base RGB was 116,21,33 which, already on screen, is noticeably different from the CMYK option I started with. The source for all these values was this: https://www.color-name.com/dark-ruby.color 

Attached are the two output PDFs, "try9a" is using Working FOGRA39, while "try9b" is using Document FOGRA39. In the InDesign document, CMYK (0, 82, 72, 55) looks more like "try9b", but I like more the output of "try9a". How can I get to that colour already from the start? 

Please, assume I have no idea how a professional printer actually work, so ELI5!

Thank you very much

[rob day]

Hi @Inélsòre , Can you share the InDesign file? You should be able to attach it to your reply.

Something is not right, your version 9a doesn’t pass a PDF/X-3 compliance preflight, the CMYK output values of the red color in both files are not your 0|82|72|55 CMYK build, and the black text in the 9a version has been converted to a 4-color black, which would happen when the Destination profile conflicts with the document profile on export.

[Inélsòre]

Thanks Rob. The file exported with PDF/X-3 was 9b, so I guess it is ok if 9a doesn't pass it. 

I am attaching a copy of the final file stripped down of some B-W content in the middle, nothing else touched, plus a copy of the file where I originally designed the cover and then moved the parent pages over to the other document.

Also, I tried to attach a copy of the AI file for the graphic but it gave me this error "The attachment's novello f-clef v2.ai content type (application/postscript) does not match its file extension and has been removed." Try using this link: https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0d7qHFeqJ-OTgO-W6JBSoxUDQ#Novello_F-clef_v2 

Answering to Brad @ Roaring Mouse : InDesign doesn't have overall Color Settings, right? Just swatches' color space and export colour profiles, I guess ... 

Is it bad to use default export settings? Or maybe I have just messed something up with the output settings. I will attach screenshots of the output settings used for the two files. 

I normally always check Convert to Destination (preserve numbers) or Do not convert but, obviously, I must have done something wrong along the way. Sometimes it seems as if one should just let the software use the default if one doesn't know 100% what he is doing! 

[rob day]

Hi @Inélsòre , The red color in the .ai file you are placing was created as an RGB swatch.

Illustrator has a Document Color Mode—yours is CMYK, so when you pick an RGB color in the CMYK document, it gets converted to CMYK via color management. In your case it would be from your Illustrator’s RGB Working Space to the document’s CMYK profile, which you have set as FOGRA 39. In Illustrator the red CMYK color is 32|100|76|46:

Your InDesign document has no CMYK profile assignment and its CM Policy is set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles), so the Illustrator CMYK values place unchanged, and the red CMYK preview depends on whatever CMYK Working Space you currently to have set in Color Settings:

Here you can see my Separation Preview is showing that the Illustrator CMYK values have placed unchanged:

You also have a CMYK Swatch that is not used named Dark Ruby CMYK, and it looks like you built that swatch in ID as CMYK 0|82|72|55. If that’s the color you want output, go back to Illustrator and set the CMYK values of the swatch you have named as R=116 G=21 B=33 to 0|82|72|55, and maybe rename the swatch to avoid confusion.

I would also set your InDesign document’s CMYK profile assignment to FOGRA39 and when you Export use a PDF/X Standard preset—don’t use the Export setting you are showing in 9a-1.png.

[Inélsòre]

Thank you so much, Rob!

When you say "Your InDesign document has no CMYK profile assignment", does it mean that I missed to do something or that the InDesign document doesn't have this feature? 

Now, I have changed the swatch to be the CMYK conversion of the RGB 116-21-33 which, both on the color-name and google research returns 0-82-72-55. I wonder why Illustrator converted it to 32-100-76-46. Upon changing it, I got different results on-screen than what I expected. Here's the Illustrator document:

Here is the InDesign file once the link has been updated:

And here is what this looks in all web converters I have found:

This last one is what I am looking for, so why does it look different in AI and ID (on screen only, I suppose)? 

Generally speaking about colour: if I have a starting RGB swatch and a suggested CMYK conversion, should I force that or follow Illustrator conversion? Where does that conversion come from and why is it so different? 

When you say: "I would also set your InDesign document’s CMYK profile assignment to FOGRA39 and when you Export use a PDF/X Standard preset—don’t use the Export setting you are showing in 9a-1.png." - how do I do that? Is Edit > Assign Profiles a good path? This is what I have always had: 

What is wrong with the Export settings shown in 9a-1.png? I would like to learn what I got wrong. 

The printer told me to "Export to ICC profile - maintain values", but I do not find such a function in the Export window. 

Thank you

[Inélsòre]

Changing the swatch assigned to the graphics in Illustrator to the desired result of C:0 M:82 Y:72 K:55, then updating thel ink in Indesign, then inspecting that colour with the Color Theme tool, returns as if the color used was C:30 M:88 Y:85 K:37 whihc—sigh—I have no idea where this could come from ... 

Luckily, when using either the Press Quality or the X-3 preset, it seems to export well to PDF, but why is it showing wrong on screen? My custom preset also had the Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers) chosen, but exports the wrong CMYK shown above ... 

I am quite lost here ...

Addendum: setting the 0-82-72-55 in Illustrator and exporting to PDF with everything default in the program exports a PDF that looks right. Yet, on screen it does not. I doubt it is the screen as it would show wrong also in Finder or on the Web. 

[rob day]

There is no way to accurately convert to, or display a CMYK value with HTML code in a web browser—so you should not use CMYK output values from the web converters. Even Adobe has removed CMYK equivalent values from Adobe Color because of the lack of CMYK color management in HTML coding—see my answer in this Adobe Color forum thread:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/adobe-color-discussions/we-re-live-come-check-out-the-new-color-commu...

When you say "Your InDesign document has no CMYK profile assignment", does it mean that I missed to do something or that the InDesign document doesn't have this feature? 

Unless you turn your Color Settings’ CMYK Color Management Policy to Off before you create a document, or use Edit>Assign Profiles... to Discard the profile, InDesign always assigns a CMYK profile to the document.

When I open the doc you shared Assign Profiles has Discard (use current working space), so the document CMYK preview is using the Color Settings Working CMYK space, which I happen to have set to US Sheetfed Coated:

When you say: "I would also set your InDesign document’s CMYK profile assignment to FOGRA39 and when you Export use a PDF/X Standard preset—don’t use the Export setting you are showing in 9a-1.png." - how do I do that? Is Edit > Assign Profiles a good path?

You would set your base Export Settings to one of the PDF/X presets—sounds like you printer wants PDF/X-3.

Your 9a-1.png capture has None set for the Standard and Include Destination set in the Output tab. The PDF/X standards don’t embed a profile for Document CMYK colors because all the CMYK color is in the final output space and there shouldn’t be another conversion at output. The X Standard includes an Output Intent Profile which by default is used for the simulation preview in AcrobatPro

[Inélsòre]

So, is it possible that, if #741521 (116, 21, 33) in RGB is what I want to achieve, the proposed (by the web) CMYK equivalent of C:0 M:82 Y:72 K:55 may be wrong on the printer? So far it is only wrong on screen, but when exported to PDF it is fine ...  

Should I accept the automatic conversion of Illustrator from that RGB to the CMYK of 32 100 75 46? 

No problem for me if it then prints well. 

[rob day]

If the printer is actually printing to the destination FOGRA39 profile, and you have an accurate calibration monitor profile, a conversion of the web color from sRGB to Coated FOGRA39 would be the most accurate.

Why are you picking color from a website? Why not use InDesign’s or Illustrator’s color pickers?

[Inélsòre]

Forgive me, I am a musician and my graphic design knowledge go little beyond my music engraving skills, especially when it comes to colour. 

When looking for a series of colours to use to identify the different series of my editions, I decided to use "Gem colours". Looking on the web for a "Ruby color" I stumbled upon this website which looked good for my needs (if you think what it suggests is not good, please let me know). It gave RGB, CMYK, HSB values for each swatch. 

Why are you using a website color? Why not use InDesign’s or Illustrator’s color pickers?

How can I use the color pickers if I do not have a source for that colour? The color picker tools do not extend to other programs so I couldn't go with it on the web and ask it to find what it is. 

If the printer is actually printing to the destination FOGRA39 profile, and you have an accurate calibration monitor profile, a conversion of the web color from sRGB to Coated FOGRA39 would be the most accurate.

I have a 2016 MacBook Pro with P3 display, and the issue I am seeing, right now, is that there seems to be no correlation between what I see on screen and what I see in the PDF or on paper. I am trying to understand what may be going wrong here, but cannot find it. 

The point is, once I know this colour is the one I want (let's assume the RGB starting point is the correct one) what should I do?

• use the RGB in Illustrator then let InDesign export engine figure out what is the FOGRA39 equivalent? 
• use the CMYK equivalent of the starting RGB that Illustrator proposes to me (and that is different from what the website suggested)? 
• change some settings in the programs? 

This issue arose only when I decided to draw this graphic in Illustrator and Place it in InDesign. Before I was adding the PDF or SVG directly in InDesign, changing its colour from there. The problem I had is that some curves needed changing so I veered towards Illustrator. 

[rob day]

The problem with web CMYK charts is they assume the CMYK color will print the same no matter what the press profile is, and they don’t tell you what the expected profile or press conditions are.

A CMYK color’s appearance will change depending on the press conditions—properties like paper absorption, dot gain, ink colors will all change the color’s apperance. The CMYK profile assignment attempts to proof those changes. Here you can see the affect of the assigned profile on the same CMYK color values—Coated FOGRA39, Uncoated Fogra 47L, US Newsprint SNAP:

[Inélsòre]

Oh my cold and damped feet! (original winter 2022 Italian curse, sponsored by heating restrictions!)

That's a world and a half of difference!

Now it is much clearer... thank you!

Last advice, for which I will in no way hold you responsible of any mistake or misprint: if RGB is (116, 21, 33), printing profile is FOGRA39, and export preset is PDF-X3:2003, what would you if this were your document? 

What swatch would you set up in Illustrator? RGB or CMYK? If CMYK, which one? That is, what code numbers?

[rob day · Accepted solution]

If you feel compelled to pick color from a web page, then you could assume the RGB profile of the color’s HTML code is the default web browser sRGB. So it would be better to ignore the site’s CMYK values, create your colors as sRGB, and let the Adobe apps make color managed conversions to CMYK.

In Illustrator if you set your Color Settings’ Working spaces to sRGB and FOGRA39, make a new CMYK document, make a Color or Swatch with the Color mode set to RGB and the values as 116|21|33, the Color or Swatch is automatically converted to the document’s CMYK profile—doesn’t matter what you name it. That’s effectively what you have done.

You could also make an RGB document, and in that case the 116|21|33 color would remain as an sRGB color. If you place that file in InDesign, the same conversion to FOGRA39 CMYK could happen on Export by setting the destiantion to FOGRA39.

In either case use a PDF/X preset.

[Brad @ Roaring Mouse]

"Working" refers to the CMYK Profile you have set in your overall Color Settings for your apps. "Document" refers to the profile you've assigned specifically to the document, which can be different than your Color Settings. The FOGRA part is the actual ICC profile... there's only one.

Opening your two PDFs, the reason they LOOK different on the screen is that you have a different Simulation Profile set. In 9a, it's using the default, whereas in 9b it's using the Intedned output FOGRA Profile. If you cahnage 9a to the same, the colours will match.

That being said, Rob is right. You've somehow converted your original CMYK mix along the way.... What exactly were your Export settings in regards to Output?

"No Conversion" should be the choice as you've already defined Destination and Output Intent anyway. If you pick "Convert to Destination" and your destination is different than your document's assigned profile, your CMYK will be converted to a match in the FOGRA world. this appears to be what has happened. You can override this by "Convert to destination (Preserve numbers)" in which case your original CMYK values would be left untouched.

[Inélsòre]

Where do I change the Similation Profile set?