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Inélsòre
Inspiring
December 10, 2022
Answered

Working FOGRA39 vs Document FOGRA39 - what are their differences?

  • December 10, 2022
  • 2 replies
  • 3538 views

Dear all,

I have a question about colour profiles and how they render in printing. 

I have just finished to design the new cover of my musical editions which will hopefully go into print and distribution by the beginning of 2023. The colour of the element on the cover is set up as CMYK (0, 82, 72, 55), and when I export it for printing, the profile is set up to use Working FOGRA39. The printer, though, asked me to use PDF/X-3:2003, which defaults to Document FOGRA39. The result I get both in the PDF on-screen and in the printed proof that I got is noticeably darker than the one using Working FOGRA39. 

Why is this so? 

I recently read the article by David Blatner on CMYK vs RGB, where he suggested using RGB for design, and then use the profile requested by the printer to output the proper colour. In this case, the base RGB was 116,21,33 which, already on screen, is noticeably different from the CMYK option I started with. The source for all these values was this: https://www.color-name.com/dark-ruby.color 

 

Attached are the two output PDFs, "try9a" is using Working FOGRA39, while "try9b" is using Document FOGRA39. In the InDesign document, CMYK (0, 82, 72, 55) looks more like "try9b", but I like more the output of "try9a". How can I get to that colour already from the start? 

Please, assume I have no idea how a professional printer actually work, so ELI5!

 

Thank you very much

This topic has been closed for replies.
Correct answer rob day

Oh my cold and damped feet! (original winter 2022 Italian curse, sponsored by heating restrictions!)

That's a world and a half of difference!

Now it is much clearer... thank you!

 

Last advice, for which I will in no way hold you responsible of any mistake or misprint: if RGB is (116, 21, 33), printing profile is FOGRA39, and export preset is PDF-X3:2003, what would you if this were your document? 

What swatch would you set up in Illustrator? RGB or CMYK? If CMYK, which one? That is, what code numbers?


If you feel compelled to pick color from a web page, then you could assume the RGB profile of the color’s HTML code is the default web browser sRGB. So it would be better to ignore the site’s CMYK values, create your colors as sRGB, and let the Adobe apps make color managed conversions to CMYK.

 

In Illustrator if you set your Color Settings’ Working spaces to sRGB and FOGRA39, make a new CMYK document, make a Color or Swatch with the Color mode set to RGB and the values as 116|21|33, the Color or Swatch is automatically converted to the document’s CMYK profile—doesn’t matter what you name it. That’s effectively what you have done.

 

You could also make an RGB document, and in that case the 116|21|33 color would remain as an sRGB color. If you place that file in InDesign, the same conversion to FOGRA39 CMYK could happen on Export by setting the destiantion to FOGRA39.

 

In either case use a PDF/X preset.

2 replies

Brad @ Roaring Mouse
Community Expert
Brad @ Roaring MouseCommunity Expert
Community Expert
December 11, 2022

"Working" refers to the CMYK Profile you have set in your overall Color Settings for your apps. "Document" refers to the profile you've assigned specifically to the document, which can be different than your Color Settings. The FOGRA part is the actual ICC profile... there's only one.

Opening your two PDFs, the reason they LOOK different on the screen is that you have a different Simulation Profile set. In 9a, it's using the default, whereas in 9b it's using the Intedned output FOGRA Profile. If you cahnage 9a to the same, the colours will match.

That being said, Rob is right. You've somehow converted your original CMYK mix along the way.... What exactly were your Export settings in regards to Output?

 

"No Conversion" should be the choice as you've already defined Destination and Output Intent anyway. If you pick "Convert to Destination" and your destination is different than your document's assigned profile, your CMYK will be converted to a match in the FOGRA world. this appears to be what has happened. You can override this by "Convert to destination (Preserve numbers)" in which case your original CMYK values would be left untouched.

I
InélsòreAuthor
Inspiring
December 12, 2022

Where do I change the Similation Profile set? 

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
December 10, 2022

Hi @Inélsòre , Can you share the InDesign file? You should be able to attach it to your reply.

 

Something is not right, your version 9a doesn’t pass a PDF/X-3 compliance preflight, the CMYK output values of the red color in both files are not your 0|82|72|55 CMYK build, and the black text in the 9a version has been converted to a 4-color black, which would happen when the Destination profile conflicts with the document profile on export.

 

 

I
InélsòreAuthor
Inspiring
December 11, 2022

Thanks Rob. The file exported with PDF/X-3 was 9b, so I guess it is ok if 9a doesn't pass it. 

I am attaching a copy of the final file stripped down of some B-W content in the middle, nothing else touched, plus a copy of the file where I originally designed the cover and then moved the parent pages over to the other document.

Also, I tried to attach a copy of the AI file for the graphic but it gave me this error "The attachment's novello f-clef v2.ai content type (application/postscript) does not match its file extension and has been removed." Try using this link: https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0d7qHFeqJ-OTgO-W6JBSoxUDQ#Novello_F-clef_v2 

Answering to @Brad @ Roaring Mouse : InDesign doesn't have overall Color Settings, right? Just swatches' color space and export colour profiles, I guess ... 

Is it bad to use default export settings? Or maybe I have just messed something up with the output settings. I will attach screenshots of the output settings used for the two files. 

I normally always check Convert to Destination (preserve numbers) or Do not convert but, obviously, I must have done something wrong along the way. Sometimes it seems as if one should just let the software use the default if one doesn't know 100% what he is doing! 

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
December 11, 2022

Hi @Inélsòre , The red color in the .ai file you are placing was created as an RGB swatch.

 

Illustrator has a Document Color Mode—yours is CMYK, so when you pick an RGB color in the CMYK document, it gets converted to CMYK via color management. In your case it would be from your Illustrator’s RGB Working Space to the document’s CMYK profile, which you have set as FOGRA 39. In Illustrator the red CMYK color is 32|100|76|46:

 

 

Your InDesign document has no CMYK profile assignment and its CM Policy is set to Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles), so the Illustrator CMYK values place unchanged, and the red CMYK preview depends on whatever CMYK Working Space you currently to have set in Color Settings:

 

 

 

Here you can see my Separation Preview is showing that the Illustrator CMYK values have placed unchanged:

 

 

 

You also have a CMYK Swatch that is not used named Dark Ruby CMYK, and it looks like you built that swatch in ID as CMYK 0|82|72|55. If that’s the color you want output, go back to Illustrator and set the CMYK values of the swatch you have named as R=116 G=21 B=33 to 0|82|72|55, and maybe rename the swatch to avoid confusion.

 

 

I would also set your InDesign document’s CMYK profile assignment to FOGRA39 and when you Export use a PDF/X Standard preset—don’t use the Export setting you are showing in 9a-1.png.

 

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