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ukzembla
Known Participant
June 10, 2020
Answered

Working with CMYK images made with the wrong colour profile

  • June 10, 2020
  • 4 replies
  • 14503 views

Hi, 

 

I'm working on an illustrated colour book, which should be exported with the FOGRA52 profile. The client has said that TAC should be 260% max, though I believe FOGRA52 enforces a max of 300. The client has provided me with CMYK PSDs just using the default CMYK profile (U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2). I suspect the illustrator may just not know much about colour profiles, and I won't be able to get new files from them. I usually get images as RGB, which InDesign then converts upon export to the output profile, but I believe if I import CMYK images into InDesign, then when I have "preserve numbers" set on export (which I am still too scared to change), InDesign will preserve the SWOP profile from the Photoshop files, rather than convert to FOGRA52. So... should I be going into each PSD file, going to convert to profile, then converting to FOGRA52, or is that fraught? And for the TAC, if it's actually 260 max, what's the best (easyish) way to achieve this without spending hours recolouring images? My Photoshop skills are OK, but I'm certainly not an illustrator. I'm not sure if this is something printers can often do in house or not.

 

Thanks for your help in the dark arts of colour reproduction and profiles…

Correct answer rob day

when I have "preserve numbers" set on export (which I am still too scared to change), InDesign will preserve the SWOP profile from the Photoshop files, rather than convert to FOGRA52.

 

Preserve Numbers is a bit misleading, it only preserves the numbers of document CMYK colors—native InDesign swatches and colors, and placed CMYK images with no embedded profile (or a profile that matches your ID document’s assigned profile). All other color—CMYK with a conflicting profile, or any RGB color—would be converted to new numbers.

 

So the expected export behavior would depend on the Color Settings’ CMYK policy you used when creating the document. If the document was set up with the CMYK Policy set to Preserve Embedded Profiles, the placed SWOP CMYK images would get converted to FOGRA 52 on an export set to Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers), and the native CMYK swatch numbers would be preserved no matter what the document’s assigned profile. If your Policy was set to Preserve Profiles (Ignore Linked Profiles), the placed SWOP CMYK images would have their CMYK profile ignored and there would be no conversion on the export.

 

You are right FOGRA 52 is an uncoated profile and allows up to 300% on a conversion, so a conversion from SWOP (or RGB) to FOGRA 52 would not limit the ink to 260%. Are you in direct communication with the printer? If they are asking for a 260% limit, but are expecting FOGRA 52, they don’t understand how conversions work.

4 replies

rob day
Community Expert
rob dayCommunity Expert
Community Expert
June 10, 2020

Not sure if this will help, but the interaction between your document’s Color Management Policies and the Export>Output>Color Conversion choice can be tricky.

 

You can use InDesign’s Separation Preview to see what will happen when you export with the Destination set as Document CMYK, and the Color Conversion set to Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers).

 

In order to make it easier to see number changes, I’m placing a PSD filled with 100% Black (0|0|0|100) and 100% Cyan, and saved as a PSD with the US Web Coated SWOP profile embedded:

 

 

If I make an InDesign document with Color Settings set to FOGRA52 as the CMYK assignment, and Preserve Embedded (Ignore Linked Profiles) as the CMYK Policy, place the SWOP PSD, and create matching 100%K and 100%Cyan InDesign rectangles; you can see Separation Preview shows the SWOP colors do not change because the policy has ignored the SWOP profile, which conflicts with the InDesign document’s  FOGRA52 assignment:

 

 

If I set the Color Settings’ CMYK Policy to Preserve Embedded Profiles, and make a new document, you can see the PSD will get converted to new numbers, but the native InDesign fill numbers do not get converted and remain as 100%K and 100%C:

 

 

 

The Export Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers) is designed for cases like yours, where you are forced to place CMYK images with wrong profiles, but don’t want your native ID swatches changing. However, to get it to work the document CM Policy has to be set to Preserve Embedded Profiles.

    U
    ukzemblaAuthor
    Known Participant
    June 12, 2020

    Thank you for such a detailed example! That really helps illustrate how things work. I am in fact querying things with the printer, perhaps I'm getting conflicting advice from different people in the production chain... but in any case an example like this is super useful.

    rob day
    Community Expert
    rob dayCommunity ExpertCorrect answer
    Community Expert
    June 10, 2020

    when I have "preserve numbers" set on export (which I am still too scared to change), InDesign will preserve the SWOP profile from the Photoshop files, rather than convert to FOGRA52.

     

    Preserve Numbers is a bit misleading, it only preserves the numbers of document CMYK colors—native InDesign swatches and colors, and placed CMYK images with no embedded profile (or a profile that matches your ID document’s assigned profile). All other color—CMYK with a conflicting profile, or any RGB color—would be converted to new numbers.

     

    So the expected export behavior would depend on the Color Settings’ CMYK policy you used when creating the document. If the document was set up with the CMYK Policy set to Preserve Embedded Profiles, the placed SWOP CMYK images would get converted to FOGRA 52 on an export set to Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers), and the native CMYK swatch numbers would be preserved no matter what the document’s assigned profile. If your Policy was set to Preserve Profiles (Ignore Linked Profiles), the placed SWOP CMYK images would have their CMYK profile ignored and there would be no conversion on the export.

     

    You are right FOGRA 52 is an uncoated profile and allows up to 300% on a conversion, so a conversion from SWOP (or RGB) to FOGRA 52 would not limit the ink to 260%. Are you in direct communication with the printer? If they are asking for a 260% limit, but are expecting FOGRA 52, they don’t understand how conversions work.

      U
      ukzemblaAuthor
      Known Participant
      August 7, 2020

      Well, it seems requests like this keep coming up with different commercial printers in Europe, so it definitely wasn't a one-off… So my choices are for situations like this: 1) use a different printer (not my prerogative as I'm supplying print-ready PDFs, not in charge of printing or paying for it); 2) try to get more info out of the printers (can be frustrating as I usually get one-line answers without too much help, and often English isn't a first language); 3) try to fix the TAC myself somehow (I've been told that certain types of paper need different TACs, so perhaps that's the issue). I'm mainly concerned that the colours come out as intended (so I don't want to use a totally different profile for the wrong printer but with the right TAC). In that situation where you don't have that much choice, what would people here do? Is there such a thing as the standard FOGRA52 profile but with a modified TAC? The alternatives I can think of are: convert images to CMYK using another profile (e.g. GRACOL, which is 280 TAC) in Photoshop, then converting that to FOGRA52. Which is a bit of a hassle and I'm unclear how well it would come out – or altering the colours levels myself, which I'm not keen to do.

       

      From looking around, it seems that VIGC created some lower TAC versions of standard profiles at the time for this very purpose (there's still one knocking around for FOGRA47 with a TAC of 260), but it doesn't look like it's been updated, and various links I've found online are now dead. Is FOGRA47 with that TAC a reasonable substitute, if the printer is unable to provide their own ICC profile? 

      rob day
      Community Expert
      rob dayCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      August 7, 2020

      The alternatives I can think of are: convert images to CMYK using another profile (e.g. GRACOL, which is 280 TAC) in Photoshop, then converting that to FOGRA52. Which is a bit of a hassle and I'm unclear how well it would come out – or altering the colours levels myself, which I'm not keen to do.

       

      I would never make CMYK-to-CMYK conversions.

       

      The color appearance of Uncoated GRACol and PSO Uncoated FOGRA52 is quite similar, so why not use GRACol? Or leave the images as profiled RGB and let the printer handle the conversion in the RIP, in that case the press color profile and TAC will be their responsibility.

       

      Here is the same CMYK image with the two different profiles assigned:

       

      T
      Test Screen Name
      Legend
      June 10, 2020

      "I believe if I import CMYK images into InDesign, then when I have "preserve numbers" set on export (which I am still too scared to change), InDesign will preserve the SWOP profile from the Photoshop files, rather than convert to FOGRA52."

       

      Quite the opposite. If you say "preserve numbers" it keeps the numbers (ink values) that are right for SWOP, but changes the label to FOGRA52, so the RIP won't know to convert anything. It is used as a desperate last resort only, when you know the CMYK values were correct. (I'm curious Frans - you say that CMYK is not converted, then what does this option apply to?)

      Frans v.d. Geest
      Community Expert
      Frans v.d. GeestCommunity Expert
      Community Expert
      June 10, 2020

      "Preserve numbers" says it all: it preserves the CMYK values. Otherwise, Black K text would be converted to another profile and would become a CYMK black instead of K for instance or a 20% Cyan only would become a CMYK build.

       

      Colour management is designed for RGB to CMYK managment. So if you keep your images in RGB they will be converted to the right profile on output from InDesign; but CMYK values (so images in CMYK mode as well) will be 'preserved'!

       

      But when you have CMYK images you want to convert? Use Photoshop to Convert to profile. Then when you place those in InDesign they are already in the 'right' values and will pe passed as such with  outp from InDesign.

        Frans v.d. Geest
        Community Expert
        Frans v.d. GeestCommunity Expert
        Community Expert
        June 10, 2020

        Yes, only RGB images are converted when outputting from InDesign. But indeed, use Photoshop and then Convert to Profile and use the 260% TAC profile. Then place those images in InDesign.

          U
          ukzemblaAuthor
          Known Participant
          June 10, 2020

          Thanks for the help. The only thing is that the printers asked both for FOGRA52 and a max TAC of 260%, but I'm pretty sure FOGRA52 has a max TAC of 300%. Is there a reasonably straightforward way around this?

          Frans v.d. Geest
          Community Expert
          Frans v.d. GeestCommunity Expert
          Community Expert
          June 10, 2020

          Yes, Fogra 52 (PSOuncoated_v3) has indeed a TAC of 300%, Fogra 39 and Fogra 47 have 260% TAC

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