Color and blending modes between placed AI file and InDesign document not displaying correctly

[terraa48174024]

I am making a map with color-coded blocks. I was already having trouble with blending in this document, because it started as a PSD file and was someone else's work. I eventually removed all labels and layers except the base map, which is an image, then exported it as a JPEG. I placed that image in Illustrator and began creating new colored layers and text layers, and the colored layers have the exclusion blending mode activated. It looks like this in Illustrator:

I have placed the entire AI file into InDesign where it looks like this for some reason:

I tried to export it as a PDF and place the PDF instead, but that didn't solve the problem. I made sure that both Illustrator and InDesign were set to CMYK. I have never encountered this before and the reason I was making the map in Illustrator was specifically to take advantage of the blending modes and the pen tool which isn't as easy to work with in InDesign. I also kept getting an error message that said that one of my files had moved, even though I know that my files have not budged since I began working on this project. Once I noticed the problem in InDesign, I windowed back into Illustrator, where I got the error meessage in that program as well, then the appearance changed when I clicked ok in Illustrator to look more like the placed file with all black backgrounds. I CTRL+Z until it went back the way it should look, and windowed back to ID, where the low res preview looked correct, but then once I double clicked the file in the links window to update the link, it went back to the black verison. Please HALP

[Willi Adelberger]

What type of colors did you use in Illustrator? Spot Colors or Process Colors?

[terraa48174024]

Process color, 

[Willi Adelberger]

Did you use any blending mode other than normal in Illustrator?

Check on every level, object, layer, group, etc.

[terraa48174024]

Yes, I did, I said in my original post that the colored layers are using the exclusion blending mode. I have still never seen this happen before and I've used blending modes with illustrator and indesign in the past. I usually just save it as a PDF and it saves the appearance, then place the PDF. 

[Willi Adelberger]

Don't use excluding, use normal.

[terraa48174024]

Ok now I went to each swatch and saved as spot color to see if that made a difference and it didn't help

[Willi Adelberger]

No, don't mak a spot color if you don't print as spot color.

[Willi Adelberger]

You wrote you exported to PDF? Did you use save as PDF or did you use any kind of export? What type of PDF did you use? Recommended in InDesign is only PDF/X-4.

[terraa48174024]

First I exported as PDF Press Quality preset, then I read on this forum to try PDF/X-4, which I also tried. When I used that version I got an error message and the issue didn't resolve. When I re-save the PDF, before I click the yellow caution sign in the links panel in InDesign, I can see the low res preview of the placed PDF and it looks right, but then once I update the linked file, it looks wrong again

[Willi Adelberger]

Nope, use PDF/X-4 only. Never another type. Yellow triangle is not a problem, only a 8 corner red polygon would be. If it looks low res, switch to high quality preview with the right mouse click. 

[terraa48174024]

Thanks for the reply, but I tried PDF/X-4 and that did not resolve the issue. My point was that it looked correct in the low res preview before double-clicking to update the linked file, after which it is again just black instead of the correct color. 

[rob day]

Not sure if this relates to your problem, but blending modes from AI and PS don't get applied to Indesign objects. If you draw a rectangle in AI, set it to multiply, place it in InDesign, the AI object would not multiply over native ID objects below.

Also, have you tried saving as Illustrator format .ai, rather than exporting a PDF?

[Willi Adelberger]

No, that is not rue. InDesign respects the blending mode of PDF/X-4 files drom Illustrator, but not from Photoshop.

[terraa48174024]

The guy above says this only works with PDF/X-4, but I know for a fact that it will work with any PDF. But yes, I started with the AI file before I saved as a PDF, press quality, then as a PDF/X-4, then eventually I saved the project as a JPEG and that worked. But the problem with that is the image quality isn't as sharp and this will be shared digitally, so I would really prefer a PDF.

I understand what you are saying, that the blending modes won't be applied to objects underneath the placed object within InDesign, but there is nothing underneath this object. I made a copy of a previous project which had a map that I edited in AI then placed in InDesign, and it worked perfectly. All blending modes were applied and displayed properly in the InDesign project. I then replaced the map with this new map, and that is when the issues started.

I have always, always exported as press quality and placed these PDFs into InDesign with no problem. The only difference between this project and others that I have completed with no issue is that this project was started in Photoshop, but I have gone back to the original PSD file and I can't find a single layer within that is using any sort of blending mode. I found some layers were using lowered opacity, but those layers were hidden when I exported the file as a JPEG. So as far as I can tell, that wouldn't affect the AI file. 

[rob day]

Can you share the Illustrator file?

[terraa48174024]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qTtr7BZ_oZtHXPkfGW7PmZ8wq36pkQ43?usp=sharing

[rob day · Accepted solution]

The .ai’s Document Color Mode is RGB, so if I set the InDesign document’s Transparency Blend Space to RGB it works:

[terraa48174024]

Great, thank you! My only issue now is that you can't print in RGB, right? I mean I guess if she is just printing from her own work computer it will work fine, but not at a commercial printer

[rob day]

The RGB values would get converted to CMYK (or the print device’s profile) somewhere downstream, either on an export to PDF or by the print driver. There probably wouldn’t be a problem with a composite printer. In a separated offset print the thin black lines would get converted to 4-color, and that could cause registration problems on press. It looks like the map is an embedded PSD—it is CMYK but the black lines are 4-color.

[terraa48174024]

Yeah I have no idea where that image came from, all I knew how to do was try different exports from the PSD document itself that I found it in. Thank you so much for your help!

[Laubender]

Hi terraa48174024,

if you want to print this in CMYK on a press, yes, you are in trouble.

Then the AI file has to be redone.

Just looked inside the AI file where a TIFF image is embedded.

Hm. The original color space is not detectable, but I think it would be in RGB.

To get this right we need a bitmap 1-Bit representation of the placed image for all parts that should be print with ink [Black].

Also a CMYK one for the map's legend. And all that with an Adobe Illustrator file in CMYK mode.

Or, perhaps better, all that redone in InDesign.

Regards,
Uwe Laubender

( ACP )

[Laubender]

Hi Rob,

if I unembed the embedded TIFF image it would be saved as PSD file with RGB colors.

( Adobe Illustrator 2020 on Windows 10 )

The placed and embedded TIFF is named "Blank map2.tif".

Regards,
Uwe Laubender

( ACP )

[rob day]

A save as to PDF/X-1a could force the black lines to convert to black only CMYK. Here I’ve set the destination to a maximum black generation profile. It doesn‘t seem like the color is that fussy, so it could work.

[rob day]

Also, my maximum black PDF/X-1a can be placed back into InDesign with a CMYK Transparency Blend Space and Separation Preview shows the lines as black only.

Here’s the file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xfsvetefxrl48ax/layered%20bp%20mapMAX1a.pdf?dl=0