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Get rid of ICC profile

Forum|Forum|14 years ago
March 8, 2012
3 replies
32699 views

Hi there,

I have a bunch of CMYK imges, which was converted from RGB. Some of them are in Euroscale Uncoated V2, some of them are FOGRA 39. I have my CS5 assigned to FOGRA39, so my .indd document is in FOGRA39 ICC profile.I was told by the printer, that I have to get rid of all ICC profiles, because "they can cause possible troubles". So my first question is: If I save the As, with unchecked "include profile", will the colors in the image remain absolutely the same? And what if i have files with 2 assigned ICC profiles as I mentioned abowe?

And finally, if I have my whole CS5 assigned to FOGRA39, how about export the final PDF, if printer does not want any ICCs?

Thanks in advance guys!

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Correct answer rob day

So my first question is: If I save the As, with unchecked "include profile", will the colors in the image remain absolutely the same?

Not necessarily. How ID handles placed images with conflicting profiles depends on how you set the Color Setting’s CMYK Color Management Policy when the document was created. If you chose Preserve Embedded then any placed image with a profile that conflicts with your document's profile will get converted to document CMYK when you export.

So with Preserve Embedded, if you placed a CMYK image filled with 50% black with a US Coated SWOP profile in your doc that's assigned FOGRA39, the 50% black would get converted to a CMY mix on a PDF/X-a export.

If you chose Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, then InDesign would ignore the SWOP profile and the 50% black would export unchanged. If you choose Off, the document get's no assignment and is color managed by the current CMYK working space.

Also keep in mind that simply opening Color Settings and changing the CM policy doesn't change a document's policy. To change a doc policy you need to check Ask When Opening before opening the doc. In that case you'll get an option to change the existing document policy.

C

ChristianAaltonenAuthor

Known Participant

Hey,

thank you guys for your contrubution!

Let me ask a few more question:

In real world can happen, that you are preparing document for certain printer, who wants data assigned to FOGRA39. But when you are ready, your boss come and you are told, that your data will be printed by someone else, because he offered better price. So all the source images, which you converted from source RGB profile to destination FOGRA39 have to be converted to another profile, according to the requirement of that new printer. {In case he have different requirements, of course.} I would like just to know, whether I will get different results for:

RGB > CMYK01 Profile > CMYK02 Profile
RGB > CMYK02 Profile

Does each following color profile conversation degrade the data {or color appearance} in any way? Will be the appearance of colors affected when:

CMYK01 Profile > CMYK02 Profile > CMYK01 Profile

Thank you!

Peter Spier

Community Expert

This is a major reason many users like to keep images in RGB until the final output. You then get to convert the data to the correct profile, no matter what conditions that might be.

RGB to CMYK is always device dependent and usually somewhat destructive of colors since the RGB gamut is larger than CMYK and your image is likely to have out-of-gamut areas for any particular CMYK profile. If you convert to a space that is smaller than the one you want to change to later, a direct RGB > CMYK conversion will be better because it will drop or remap fewer colors. Once those colors have been converted the first time to CMYK, they won't be retrievable in a second conversion.

C

ChristianAaltonenAuthor

Known Participant

Peter Spier wrote:
This is a major reason many users like to keep images in RGB until the final output. You then get to convert the data to the correct profile, no matter what conditions that might be.
RGB to CMYK is always device dependent and usually somewhat destructive of colors since the RGB gamut is larger than CMYK and your image is likely to have out-of-gamut areas for any particular CMYK profile. If you convert to a space that is smaller than the one you want to change to later, a direct RGB > CMYK conversion will be better because it will drop or remap fewer colors. Once those colors have been converted the first time to CMYK, they won't be retrievable in a second conversion.

Peter,

one more question and I will stop - promisse

Wouldn't be best, if I place to ID images in source RGB and I use ID to convert the whole document to one final CMYK? What different is btw. this approach and converting all images to CMYK using Ps and placing them to ID afterwards?

rob day

Correct answer

Community Expert

So my first question is: If I save the As, with unchecked "include profile", will the colors in the image remain absolutely the same?

Not necessarily. How ID handles placed images with conflicting profiles depends on how you set the Color Setting’s CMYK Color Management Policy when the document was created. If you chose Preserve Embedded then any placed image with a profile that conflicts with your document's profile will get converted to document CMYK when you export.

So with Preserve Embedded, if you placed a CMYK image filled with 50% black with a US Coated SWOP profile in your doc that's assigned FOGRA39, the 50% black would get converted to a CMY mix on a PDF/X-a export.

If you chose Preserve Numbers (Ignore Linked Profiles) or Off, then InDesign would ignore the SWOP profile and the 50% black would export unchanged. If you choose Off, the document get's no assignment and is color managed by the current CMYK working space.

Also keep in mind that simply opening Color Settings and changing the CM policy doesn't change a document's policy. To change a doc policy you need to check Ask When Opening before opening the doc. In that case you'll get an option to change the existing document policy.

C

ChristianAaltonenAuthor

Known Participant

Hi Rob,

thank you for your explanation. It helped me to uderstand more about the color-space-policyes. So I suppose, that in case I will create PDF with images of mixed CMYK profiles, fhe results of the same colors will be different. But please tell me - If all will be assigned to the profile during export, there will be ICC included in the PDF. But this is what my printer does not want...

To be honest, I do not understand fully when he say, that I should get rid of ICCs. Because when I am converting from camera's RGB to CMYK, i have to choose CMYK profile, which is ICC. So I have to select ICC profile anyway, when converting.

rob day

Community Expert

But please tell me - If all will be assigned to the profile during export, there will be ICC included in the PDF. But this is what my printer does not want...

If you use the default PDF/X-1a preset all color except for spot colors will be converted into your document CMYK space, or if there's no assigned profile, the current Working CMYK space. PDF/X-1a does not allow profiles to be embedded—the assumption is all color is in the correct destination CMYK space on export and no further conversions will be necessary. You only need a profile if there's going to be a color conversion.

PDF/X-1a does include an output intent, which is not the same as a profile. Acrobat can use the output intent for displaying CMYK and it also let's your printer know what profile was used to make the final CMYK conversion. If the job is printing on a coated sheet and they see a newsprint output intent, they would be wise to reject your file.

Your printer doesn't want to be responsible for making color conversions either on purpose or by accident, so they don't want an embedded profile. If there's a color complaint they can correctly say they output the CMYK values you provided.

J

Jeffrey_Smith

Community Expert

I will give you the simplest answer for this project. Export using PDF X-1a. You will not have to change your ID color management settings, you will not have to delete ICC profiles, you will not have to worry about ICC discrepancies, just export and you are done.

C

ChristianAaltonenAuthor

Known Participant

Jeffrey_Smith wrote:
I will give you the simplest answer for this project. Export using PDF X-1a. You will not have to change your ID color management settings, you will not have to delete ICC profiles, you will not have to worry about ICC discrepancies, just export and you are done.

Thank you Jeffrey. It sounds lovely symple! I will just have a look at the specification of this PDF format, just to know what i am exporting and giving to the printer.

J

Jeffrey_Smith

Community Expert

A PDF with X-1a compliancy must meet certain criteria: 1.4 compatible, all fonts must be embedded, all color must be gray cmyk or spot, icc profiles can not be included, along with not permitting non-essential elements like annotations or forms. This PDF format is commonly submitted for the following situations: unknown printer specs, printer specifically requires X-1a, or working with a printer system that manages color independently of included icc profiles.

My suggestion comes from hearing things like "icc profiles can cause possible troubles", but best advice is to ask your print provider their specifications.

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