P: Still inconsistent capture date/time for photos and videos

[John R Ellis]

Update 5/17/2018: Though LR 7.1 made improvements, LR 7.3.1 still has two closely related problems with a single underlying cause:

- With photos and videos missing metadata capture date/times (e.g. scans), there is still an inconsistency between the times shown under the thumbnails in grid view and in the Metadata panel and the hidden, internal times used for sorting in grid view.

- Changing IPTC Date Created in the Metadata panel, either by editing the field or using Metadata > Copy/Paste Metadata, similarly causes inconsistent values to be shown and sorting and searching to work inconsistently.  It also causes date metadata to be written back to the files that doesn't conform with the Metadata Working Group's standard.

The underlying cause is architectural: LR doesn't have a single internal catalog field representing "capture time".  Rather, it maintains capture time in several different fields, and the various parts of LR update those fields inconsistently.

See here for precise recipes to replicate these bugs:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

See here for a workaround: 

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim....  

-------------

LR 5.7 still shows inconsistent capture date/times for videos. For a test .avi on Windows 8.1, the date in grid view appears to be the file system's last-modified time, while Capture Date/Time is set to the time of import.This problem was declared fixed in LR 5.5, and it appears to have been fixed for images, but not videos:http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/inconsistent_dates_for_files_missing_date_time...I'm opening a new topic, since the previous one has been marked "Solved". Untitled2_inline-402b28f5-7fce-4485-bbc7-1eba2e9ee1ed-622028544.png Untitled_inline-a0d82271-2553-4a54-8824-20de68939af3-906850541.png

[Mikkelikski]

Im not sure if my particular instance of this issue is already addressed earlier in this thread, but I will ad it anyways to be sure that it is represented.
I am running 2015.8 version of LR, on a OSX Sierra 10.12.3 
In the metadata panel, the option to chose date - "unknown" is not available, as you see below. Apparently Lightroom does not think that these images are without date. Lightroom seems to have a opinion about the date and time of these images, that it suggests when I go into "edit capture time..." with one of these images selected. But as you can see in the image bellow, the chosen image has no capture date and time information in the metadata panel to the right.


Thanks a lot to: johnrellis for answering my post about this, and directing me here.
Hope Adobe fixes this!

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Thank you to  John R. Ellis, Champion - I have been able to begin to fix the incorrect dates allocated by Lightroom.  But I am still of the opinion that Lightroom is not importing the information correctly when it is in the EXIF.

I found this thread because I am really frustrated with Lightroom, and could not find out how to fix the mess it seemed to have made of my jpgs.  These were taken with my own digital cameras.

I installed Lightroom as part of the CC Photography suite on 14 October 2016.   It has set a huge number of them to a "Capture Date/Time" of then.  Initially I thought it was setting them to that date of import, but it seems that is because it used the last time the file was changed, and most files had their "ModifyDate" amended on that date.

Looking at exactly the same photos in Windows explorer and other programs shows their correct time under "Date/Time Digitised". 

Until today, all I could tell was that Lightroom was doing it "wrong".  It has internally allocated its "Capture Date/Time" field but doesn't show it except in sorting.

Following the suggestion of using attributes to filter, I find that most of my files show under "unknown" in the Date column.  So why does Lightroom show a date in the "Capture Date/Time" that it uses for sorting? How can it say unknown yet have a "Date/Time Capture"?  Why is it "Unknown" when there are valid entries in the EXIF? This inconsistency has caused me to waste so much time.

I have now looked at the EXIF using ExiftoolGUI.  There is a field called "DateTimeOriginal" which is I am guessing what you mean in your comment above by  "original date/time" field. That has the correct information, as does the field "CreateDate".  So it should work.  Lightroom has just ignored those, and used the date of last modification to set the "Capture Date/Time" which it insists on using as the default field for sorting!  If Lightroom would allow sorting by the other fields, it would not be as important.


Thanks to this thread, I have now found the way of using ExifTool and ExifToolGUI to fix the date and time so that the incorrect data is corrected and files are sorted correctly by Lightroom.
RackMultipart20170223125471h4m-e6863204-8a3a-4b91-87bd-1bd7dcc3b133-1740634956.png
There is now a field called "Date Time Original" in the EXIF section of Metadata in Lightroom, that was not there before:
RackMultipart201702231180091c4-99ba126a-6771-42b5-bd61-d03d7d7ec6c2-1000969572.png

So what happened? 

It appears that prior to Lightroom importing the files, some XMP data has been lost, or not created. Because there is SOME XMP data, Lightroom then ignores valid EXIF data.

I fixed the first mentioned files before doing screenshots, so for comparison, here is the Metadata as shown in Lightroom for two other files.  The first has been given an erroneous Capture Date/Time; the second is correct.
RackMultipart20170223558621957-c58a65a1-230f-4e04-8b04-bad951425e9c-1147877749.png
RackMultipart20170223511991bsa-c48447db-32cf-458d-ae24-7a9d4d961050-1198105576.png

In ExifToolGUI, the missing fields are XMP:CreateDate and XMP:ModifyDate.  All of the EXIF fields are there and correct.  Yet Lightroom only allocates the correct date for sorting to the file below which for some reason has those XMP fields.
RackMultipart2017022358729x760-c52556e9-5765-4428-94ec-aff49a5856a7-734768689.png
RackMultipart2017022312770510v-e8d5727d-0148-4bf4-bdfd-9d96b7bc82bd-484843859.png

The two files are on dropbox in case looking at them will help confirm whether I have worked out the issue, or if there is something else that Lightroom is doing / not doing.  Do I need to report a continuing bug?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31011761/Lightroom/20030615CanonPowerShotA40105_0585.JPG

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/31011761/Lightroom/20030615CanonPowerShotA40105_0592...

[John R Ellis]

Jim, I imported the files you posted into my LR CC 2015.8, and LR imported the capture times from both correctly.  They both have valid EXIF:DateTimeOriginal fields/

585.JPG:
[EXIF]          Date/Time Original              : 2003:06:15 12:53:56


592.JPG:
[EXIF]          Date/Time Original              : 2003:06:15 14:48:00


I see from the metadata that both pics had their metadata changed by LR 6.6.1 on 2016:09:12.   Do you have a sample pic that still imports incorrectly?

As you can see from this thread, LR has a long-standing bug and behaves inconsistently when it imports a pic that is missing capture date recorded in the metadata fields EXIF:DateTimeOriginal or XMP:DateCreated (sic, XMP:CreateDate is when the pic was digitized, not when it was captured).  That is almost certainly what is happening to you.  But we can confirm if you post a pic that still imports incorrectly.

[Arnie47]

I'm having a similar issue when sorting in collections including pictures and some sort of movies:

pictures typically have filled in different EXIF time information ensuring correct sorting:



(some) movies seem to have other EXIF time information. I don't know where the (correct!) timestamp above the picture comes from, but it is not listed in the EXIF panel onthe right and it is not considered for sorting:


This leads to the situation that in many times the pictures are listed first and the movies are listed in the end independent of their capture date.

[John R Ellis]

You've tripped over the bug described in this thread -- LR behaves inconsistently when it isn't able to read a capture date from a photo's or video's metadata.  See this post for a workaround: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

LIghtroom capture date entry appears to actually match Apple Photos.  I called Apple and was handed to an expert that said I need to type the year rapidly, not hunt and peck.  If a really old slow typing person were entering, they should "paste in" the entries so the typing is rapid.  With rapid typing of the year I've successfully entered a manual capture year correctly each time for 200+ 35mm slides.

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

I am trying to scan a large number of slides and import them into Lightroom. 
I need to change the capture time on all photos taken on a particular day from the scan date to the correct date. I tried doing this by:
Change Capture Time on one photo
Then with that photo selected in grid view: Library / Metadata / Copy Metadata then tick IPTC Image & Date Created
Then select all other photos taken on that day and: Metadata / Paste Metadata
This changed the Capture Time on all these photos, but Lightroom sorting in Grid View by Capture Time didn't use this new Capture Time, other than for the original photo changed, but still used the scan date.
If I go into Library / Metadata / Edit Capture Time and without changing the Capture Time click on the Change button the grid display sort by Capture Time picks up the correct Capture Time. This however would be very time consuming to do for thousands of slides.

[alanterra]

See my post https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/how-i-set-the-capture-time-of-a-bunch-of-phot... Let me know if it isn't clear or doesn't work for you.

[John R Ellis]

Editing IPTC Date Created or pasting it from another photo causes LR to get very confused about what it thinks the photo's capture time is.  See this post in this same topic for more details:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

This is one symptom among many of the same underlying cause, which is that LR maintains the capture time of a photo in several different fields in the LR catalog.   Different parts of LR don't keep all the fields updated correctly, and some parts read one field, and some another.  It's an architectural mess.

The problem is most often encountered with imported photos missing EXIF:DateTimeOriginal, e.g. scans, and as the result of editing IPTC Date Created within the Metadata Panel.

[John R Ellis]

And regarding your goal of setting a batch of scanned photos to have the same exact capture time, you can't do it in LR.  Please add your me-too vote and detailed opinion of why you want this to this feature request: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/edit_capture_time_issue_need_a_way_to_set_all...

See Alan Harper's response for how to use a plugin to do this.

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

When I copy/paste the metadata (with capture date/time selected) of one photo to another photo (which didn't have any date/time set), the metadata is copied correctly, but the sorting of photos (sort on capture date/time) is not reapplied.

Manually changing the ordering does not seem to work. When switching back to 'order by capture date/time' the photo is still not put in the right position.

When changing the capture date/time via Metadata > Edit Capture Time, the photo is correctly reordered.

My expectation is that after pasting metadata, containing a new capture date/time, the photo would be reordered correctly.

I'm using Lightroom 6.12.

[John R Ellis]

In the original topic, Alan Harper wrote:

"This is a long-time issue in Lightroom. The only one of the dates you can edit in the metadata panel is not the one that Lightroom uses to sort by. Some of these metadata fields are supposed to be kept in sync, and by editing one of them, you break that rule too.

"My advice is to use the Metadata : Edit Capture Time command if it fills your needs. In this way, Lightroom has the ability to keep everything copacetic. If you still feel the need to copy/paste the capture time, then look at this post for a couple of ways to make it work."

[John R Ellis]

See this post for more details about the underlying problem: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Hi John. Would you please take a minute to explain the three steps above in a little more detail? 
1. Select all the videos. In LR, correct?  
2. Metadata > Edit Capture Time- I see: Adjust to a specific time and date, Shift by a set number of hours and Change to a file's creation date (does is not the correct creation date) - Which of these options do I select?
3. OK 
Thanks in advance. 
LR6/Win7

[John R Ellis]

Here's a recipe for reproducing the bug with photos that are missing EXIF:DateTimeOriginal:

1. Create a new catalog.

2. Download and unzip https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21811200/capture-time-bug.2017.08.21.zip

3. Import the three pics in the unzipped folder "capture-time-bug".

4. Select All Photographs and do View > Sort > Capture Time and View > Sort > Ascending.

5. Observe the following inconsistent ordering of pics:



Inconsistency A: The pics are not ordered by the capture date/time shown under the thumbnails.  

Inconsistency B: The date/time shown under the test2.jpg thumbnail doesn't match the capture date/time shown for that file in the Metadata panel.

Inconsistency C: The Metadata > Default tagset shows a capture date/time (see the screenshot above), while the EXIF tagset shows no Date Time Original and the IPTC tagset shows no Date Created:




(The Metadata Working Group spec calls for EXIF:DateTimeOriginal and IPTC:Date/TimeCreated to match.)

The proximate cause of these symptoms is that test2.jpg has EXIF:ModifyDate but no EXIF:DateTimeOriginal.  This often occurs when importing scans and other images not produced by digital cameras.

This post, among others, discusses the underlying architectural problem in LR: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

[John R Ellis]

This was tested on LR CC 2015.12 / OS X 10.12.6.

[John R Ellis]

Here's a recipe for reproducing the bug with editing IPTC > Date Created in the Metadata panel or using Metadata > Copy/Paste Metadata to copy IPTC > Date Created. This was tested in both CC 2015.12 and LR 5.7.1, OS X 10.12.6 (i.e. this behavior has been present since at least LR 5.7.1):

1. Create a new catalog.

2. Download and unzip https://www.dropbox.com/s/6b0s00up2i7lm04/iptc-date-bug.2017.08.21.zip?dl=0

3. Import the three pics in the unzipped folder "iptc-date-bug".

4. Select All Photographs and do View > Sort > Capture Time and View > Sort > Ascending.

5. Observe that the pics sort in order test1.jpg, test2.jpg, test3.jpg:



6. Observe that for test1.jpg and test2.jpg, the date under the thumbnails match the capture date/time shown in Metadata > Default, Metadata > EXIF > Date Time Original, and Metadata > IPTC > Date Created.

7. Observe that for test3.jpg, there is no capture time shown in Metadata > Default, and Metadata > EXIF > Date Time Original and Metadata > IPTC > Date Created are blank.

8. Select test2.jpg, and in the Metadata > IPTC panel, change Date Created to 2014-08-21T14:04:51.  Do the same for test3.jpg.

9. Observe that the various dates shown for test2.jpg and test3.jpg are inconsistent:

test2.jpg:
Thumbnail: 8/21/16 (wrong)
Metadata > Default > Capture Date: 8/21/16 (wrong)
Metadata > EXIF > Date Time Original: 8/21/16 (wrong)
Metadata > IPTC > Date Create: 8/21/2014 (correct)

test3.jpg:
Thumbnail: 8/21/14 (correct)
Metadata > Default > Capture Date: 8/21/16 (wrong)
Metadata > EXIF > Date Time Original: (wrong)
Metadata > IPTC > Date Create: 8/21/2014 (correct)

The Metadata Working Group's "Guidelines for Handling Image Metadata Version 2.0", which Adobe employees have previously stated controls LR's metadata behavior, requires that all three date/time fields match after one of the fields is changed.

10. Observe that the pics are no longer correctly sorted by the dates shown under their thumbnails:



11. Select all three pics and do Metadata > Save Metadata To File.

12. In a command shell, execute this command:

exiftool -a -G -exif:datetimeoriginal -xmp:datecreated -iptc:datecreated test2.jpg test3.jpg

Observe this incorrect output:

======== test2.jpg
[EXIF]          Date/Time Original              : 2016:08:21 14:04:51
[XMP]           Date Created                    : 2014:08:21 14:04:51
[IPTC]          Date Created                    : 2014:08:21
======== test3.jpg
[XMP]           Date Created                    : 2014:08:21 14:04:51
[IPTC]          Date Created                    : 2014:08:21

Note that in test2.jpg, EXIF:DateTimeOriginal doesn't match XMP:DateCreated and IPTC:DateCreated. Also note that in test3.jpg, there is no EXIF:DateTimeOriginal.

However, the "Guidelines for Handling Image Metadata Version 2.0" requires that in each file, all three fields should exist and contain the same value.

This post, among others, discusses the underlying architectural problem in LR: https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

LR should maintain internally a single field representing "capture time", and it should use the Metadata Working Group's rules for mapping that field to and from the EXIF, XMP, and IPTC date fields in the file and to and from the Edit Capture Time command and the Metadata panel > IPTC > Date Created field.

[John R Ellis]

Select multiple videos or photos, choose "Adjust to a specified date and time" (the default), then click "Change All".

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Thank you again John. You're the best!

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Actually one more question John. I did what you suggested and everything seemed to work well. While my files were being corrected for date and time I deleted a picture I did not want. I removed it from disk. Since all files were selected, that deleted all of my pictures and videos. They were in my Win 7 recycle bin and I was able to restore them to the correct folder in my HD. My last catalog backup was 6 weeks ago. Is there anything I can do to recover my edits or did I lose all the work I did this past month and a half?

[John R Ellis]

Do you have regularly scheduled system backups made by a backup utility?  If so, you could try recovering a more recent catalog from there.

If you had checked the option Catalog Settings > Metadata > Automatically Write Changes  Into XMP, then your develop edits and metadata changes will be stored inside of non-raw files (e.g. JPEGs) and in .xmp sidecars for raw files, and you could recover the changes.

But if you don't have a more recent backup of the catalog, and you didn't have that option checked, I'm afraid you're out of luck.  

Going forward, I highly recommend you select that option, since it provides a second level of protection for precisely these kinds of situations.

[FeedbackCommunityMember]

Is there some other adobe product that does do a good job with capture time and date? If not, is there some other software that does?

[John R Ellis]

LR 7.0.1 (Classic) fixes the bug with photos that have EXIF:DateTime but no EXIF:DateTimeOriginal. (ExifTool calls EXIF:DateTime EXIF:ModifyDate.)  The recipe for reproducing that bug is here: 
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/lightroom-still-inconsistent-capture-date-tim...

[John R Ellis]

Unfortunately, LR 7.0.1 doesn't properly handle photos with neither EXIF:DateTime nor EXIF:DateTimeOriginal, e.g. photos from many scanner programs.  I think this bug was previously fixed in later versions of LR 5 and early versions of LR 6 (the last time I recall testing it).   (Note that ExifTool calls the industry-standard EXIF:DateTime "ModifyDate".)

Here's how to reproduce the bug:

1. Create a new catalog.

2. Download and unzip https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbma8x3n15n99ce/capture-time-bug.2017.11.13.zip?dl=0. 

3. Import the file "test4.jpg".

4. Observe that the date/time shown under test4.jpg's thumbnail is the file's last-modified time incorrectly expressed in UTC rather than local time.  (My computer is in UTC-8.):



5. Do View > Sort > Capture Time and View > Sort > Ascending and observe that the photos are correctly sorted by the date appearing under the thumbnail:



6. Do Metadata > Edit Capture Time and observe that "Original Time" shows the file's last-modified time in local time,  which doesn't match the date/time shown under the thumbnail (UTC). Hit Cancel when done.



7. Do View > Show Filter Bar and select Metadata. With test4.jpg selected, observe that the Date column shows test4.jpg in the year 2017, even though the Metadata panel's Default tagset incorrectly shows no capture date.  To be consistent with the handling of photos with EXIF:DateTime but no EXIF:DateTimeOriginal, the Metadata panel should show test4.jpg's file last-modified time as Capture Date/Time.



8. Select test4.jpg and do Library > Rename Photo.  Select the Capture Date template.  Observe that the file gets renamed using the file's last-modified time in local time, which doesn't match the UTC time shown under the thumbnail:

 

To summarize the inconsistencies:

A. The date/time shown under the file's thumbnail is the file's last-modified time shown in UTC rather than local time.

B. The Edit Capture Time command's Original Time correctly shows the file's last-modified time in local time, which doesn't match the UTC time shown under the thumbnail (incorrect).

C. The Metadata panel incorrectly shows the photo with no Capture Date, whereas the Metadata browser of the Library Filter bar correctly shows the capture date as "known".

D. Renaming the file using the capture date correctly uses the last-modified time as expressed in local time, whereas the date shown under the thumbnail is incorrectly shown in UTC.

[John R Ellis]

Note that LR 7 fixes problems with newly imported photos.  Photos imported prior to LR 7 still need to be adjusted using the workaround described above:  Select the affected photos, do Metadata > Edit Capture Time, and do Change All.