P: Unable to adjust Denoise slider value prior to Denoise running (LrC)

[ExUSA]

In both Lightroom and ACR, the Denoise amount cannot be adjusted before applying it. This is a regression from the previous preview UI where the amount could be changed before applying Denoise.

This means that Denoise must be applied before changes are possible, and the result must be recalculated if a change IS made. This is very, very poor behavior and a huge waste of time for anyone using (for example) different cameras or ISO settings which may need different Denoise amounts. This is made worse because it appears that Denoise amount always starts at 50 and doesn't use the previous setting (unless that can be changed.)

It also appears that this only happens if multiple files are selected, and the most selected file is NOT updated? If I select three files with Auto-Sync, apply Denoise, change the slider, the update dialog only shows two files being updated. 

[ExUSA]

And I think there IS a bug, read my last paragraph.

Select multiple files with Auto-Sync enabled

Apply Denoise

Once all files have been updated, move the amount slider

Note that the count, in the update window, is one less than the total. It appears that that one file is not in fact updated

[C.Cella]

@ExUSA Denoise starts at 50 as a starting point.

Unlike other sliders that start 0, no effect, it considered best to apply Denoise with a "middle ground" intensity.

Denoise DOES not keep the pervious Denoise amount as LrC has no means to know if the previous amount set would work for the current image, ergo it falls-back to default 50.
If you want the same Denoise amount applied to other photo then simple Copy or Sync it form a source and then apply it to other images.

You can also create "Develop Preset" with Denoise.

I suggest to create "Denoise Presets" at intervals: 10% 20% 30% 40% 50% 60% 70% ...up to 100%
You can thus start with the amount you want and think is best right of the bat...is valid workflow

In the end before the Denoise data il actually computed choosing any amount is purely a guess.

Until Denoise if fully real time we have to apply and see.

[C.Cella]

@ExUSA There is no bug with syncing

The "Active Photo" has Denoise and it is rendered computed real time for that image.
When Auto Sync is enabled the edits are synced AFTER they have been committed to the active photo.

For Ai settings like Denoise I suggest to edit one image, then when you are finished and are sure abut the result "Sync Settings" the Denosie to the other images

This will spare you the tedious staring at the Modal "Update Ai Settings" progress scope window every time you move the Denise Amount slider.

[ExUSA]

No. This is a regression from the previous UI and process.

Adone can simply allow the slider to be adjusted before applying Denoise. Even with presets, you STILL have to keep applying them to figure out which one is best.

Editing one photo then going back and reapplying it doesn't work either, you have to juggle sync settings.

This is just a poor design.

[C.Cella]

@ExUSA 
We can take advantage of history,  Virtual Copies, Snapshots.

So yes we do start with Denoise at 50%  BUT then we can set Denoise X% ,  then Denoise Y% , then Denoise Z%, etc...

Each step is saved and nothing is lost...each step is pre-viewable via hover over and easily comparable with the active step of our choice.

We can use any steps as "Before" OR even we can create VC for different with Denoise Amount and use Compare to see which is best.
Or we can save each different Denoise Amount step or VC as a snapshots and preview them on the same image,

We can effectively have 100 different possible Denoise versions for ANY FILE, all at our fingertips, all editable, all non destructive, all available, all easily undoable.

This is no regression to me.

To achieve the same prior LrC 14.4 we had to crete X different DNG files with baked Denoise and compare each.
In all other softwares on the market we still have to bake Denoise...we must be pretty certain that the result we have chosen is the good one as there's no undoing of those edits

I find you have more power and options than before now.

.

[ExUSA]

No, this is not what I'm asking for. I want to be able to set the amount RIGHT FROM THE START without applying it, so it doesn't have to be recalculated. This is how the feature has worked until now so YES its a regression and not a good one. They made the feature worse. Everything you mention is still available if a user likes that workflow.

Bottom line- bad change for no reason.

[ronp93120082]

I have used LrC for ~ 1 year, Denoise AI worked very well.  But 2 days ago it was not available on Detail.  Instead a very simple denoise   dialogue appeared. It is slow, difficult to use and not AI.  I have tried uninstalling LrC and installing a new LrC dowload supplied by Adobe.  Denoise AI is still not available.   I have removed ~75Mb of files from my hard drive , which is the destination for my exported images, but still I have no Denoise AI.  Any suggestions on how to solve my problem would be very welcome.

[JohanElzenga]

Post a screenshot of what you do see in Detail. I get the distinct feeling that there is nothing wrong, but that you simply did not read the "What's New" info on how AI Denoise has been changed from a version that created a DNG to the non-destructive setting it is now.

[ExUSA]

There have been multiple versions/UIs. Lightroom Classic has had two versions, and Camera RAW has had three (previous with DNG, previous technology Preview, current release.) Each has looked and worked a bit differently than the others.

[ronp93120082]

The issue was resolved by replacing LrC14.4 with the previous version. I find the new implementation of LrC far inferior. My workflow was much slowed. As a Mac user for 40+ years I prefer adjustments to be intuitive.

I am grateful for the responses from the community and I am pleased to have triggered a debate on a related issue.

Best wishes

RonP

[J-Philippe23283252uq6e]

Bonjour, depuis la mise à jour LR 14.4 je n'ai plus le choix de mon niveau de réduction du bruit par défaut à 50 , curseur grisé inaccessible.  Dès que je coche une case le process commence sans possiblité de réglage

[jan_5337]

The  denoise option in the  latest version of Lightroom (LRC) does not give you the option to "preview". It starts the denoise immediately after you click the denoise button. No preview is given. Therefore you don't have the option to increase the or decrease the amount of denoise and view it on the screen before you actually denoise. Why was this taken away?  It makes the denoise option much less user friendly and is a few steps backwards. Will this be put back in (the preview screen) in the next install or in this one?

[drtonyb]

@ExUSA 

Why do you need to set the Denoise Amount before denoising?

How do you know what Amount you want? Experience possibly.

The non-destructive Denoise just does things in reverse to the old DNG method.

First let's consider Denoising just one photo.

With the former DNG method, you had a preview window set to a fixed zoom that many found was excessively high. You could set the Amount based on what you see in the preview prior to committing to Denoise and creating a DNG with a baked-in Amount of Denoise. If you want to change the Amount sometime in the future, Denoise had to be run again, creating another DNG. The Denoised DNG doesn't inform you what Amount was applied to it, so in the future, you will not know what Amount was used to create it unless you noted it somewhere in the metadata.

The new non-destructive method runs Denoise when the checkbox is checked, applying the default Amount of 50. You can now alter the Amount slider to whatever setting that you like, whenever you like. You can zoom your photo to whatever level you choose to access that change made by the Amount slider in real time. You can always come back to the photo and know what Amount was applied to it.

I see no problems here when using non-destructive Denoise on one photo; in fact, I see this as a very positive change.

Now let's look at applying non-destructive Denoise to a selection of photos with Auto-Sync enabled.

Many users who are complaining here don't realise that they must enable Auto-Sync first, which I find quite astonishing considering that many of those users are professional photographers with years of experience using LrC.

With Auto-Sync enabled:

1. Check the Denoise checkbox, which is done to all the photos in the selection
2. Denoise is applied to the active photo in the selection
3. At this point, you don't see it, but the remaining photos in the selection are marked as needing an AI Update
4. AI Update is invoked on the remaining photos in the selection; one less than the number selected since the active photo has already been Denoised

You can Stop the AI Update processing immediately if you want to; you can then see by activating one of the photos in the selection that AI Update is needed (yellow AI Update Status icon). Assuming that you still have the selection, Shift+Click the AI Update Status icon will start the process again; any photos in the selection that did get Denoised will be skipped over almost instantly.

The big problem and I mean BIG, is that changing the Denoise Amount slider for a selection of photos initiates an AI Update process again for all the photos. This is a huge bug and is totally unnecessary and this is what really needs to be fixed now!

The other major complaint, and justifiably so, is that Denoising a large selection of photos is a slow process which is not being done in the background like before. This holds up users from continuing work on other activities in LrC while Denoise is being applied. For professional photographers Denoising very large selections, this costs them time and money. It is hoped that Adobe finds a workable solution to this seriously negative aspect of non-destructive Denoise.

[johnrellis]

@ExUSA: "In both Lightroom and ACR, the Denoise amount cannot be adjusted before applying it."

Two methods:

1. In Develop while editing a photo that has Denoise - 40 applied, define a preset "Denoise 40" with just Detail > Denoise, Raw Details, Super Resolution checked.  Then in Library, select all the desired photos and do Quick Develop > Saved Preset > Denoise 40.  This method is good for people who generally use a given amount based on their camera and their shoots.

2. In Develop with the current photo, apply Denoise and then change the slider to 40. In the filmstrip, select all the photos. Click the Sync button and select just Detail > Denoise. This method is good for a shoot where you're unsure of the amount, so you experiment with one photo and then apply it to all the rest.

You can also use Auto Sync for this (as mentioned previously), though Auto Sync is dangerous -- too many posts here over the years of people forgetting to turn it off and not noticing until it was too late.

[jchastn]

But why are we not able to adjust that level slider? I dont want 50 for any of my cameras. This has to be a bug in the sauce. I hope they are working to change this error. 

[jchastn]

Ive used Denoise for long enough to know almost every camera sensor in my catalog and what level of Denoise each needs. The feature was scary/good, and I have to believe that Adobe didnt intentionally put this in their application. 

[jchastn]

This is an obvious bug. I preferred the way it worked before, even though it was a estimated simulation, I could see what the setting was going to do to the detail in photo while it removed the noise. Once I get a feel for this, with each camera in each ISO situation, I can make proper presets but this is a lot of unnecessary work. Please fix this bug. 

[jchastn]

Its also a huge waste of electric energy and computing power to effectively use AI Denoise 2x on one image just to get the Denoise right. This is a bug, and it needs to be fixed

[johnrellis]

@jchastn: "Its also a huge waste of electric energy and computing power to effectively use AI Denoise 2x on one image just to get the Denoise right."

In normal operation, once you've computed Denoise for an image, you can freely adjust the slider, without any appreciable additional computation -- it happens nearly instantaneously.  Is that not happening for you?

[ExUSA]

This just doesn't mesh with my workflow. I already have a standard preset that I apply to every image on import. But Denoise is far too slow to use on all images, and I only retouch a small set of photos from a shoot. I do usually know the amount I want to use or close, so the previous UI was actually great (unlike much or most of Lightroom.) So they took one of the few things that was designed well and ruined it. 😠