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DdeGannes
Community Expert
DdeGannesCommunity Expert
Community Expert
June 23, 2023
Answered

Can an Enhance-NR.DNG image file be opened in third party applications like Capture One, DxO etc.?

  • June 23, 2023
  • 1 reply
  • 2353 views

Is it possible to utilize the Enhance-NR.DNG created when using the Denoise feature in Lightroom Classic with other third party applications?

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Correct answer johnrellis

@Keith Reeder : "Using Lr's manual NR, if I export a DNG, the effect of the NR is baked into the file just as I'd expect, and it's there for other programmes. It's illogical for AI Denoise not to work the same way."


No it's not there for other apps, except Adobe apps! That is true if you export as TIFF or JPEG, but not if you export as DNG. If you export as DNG, then you'll create a DNG with the original data intact and the edits stored in XMP. The third party app would have to know how to read Adobe develop settings xmp, but very few third party apps can do this. The few that can, usually read only a few settings like Exposure, crop and some other basic settings. I doubt there is any third party app that can read Adobe manual noise reduction settings in XMP.

 

This is not what happens when you use AI denoise however. The reason that AI denoise creates a DNG is that the algorithms are too slow to apply denoise non-destructively 'on the fly' like all other develop settings. Especially for people who do not have the latest and greatest GPU, it can take several minutes. Saving a new DNG with AI Denoise in XMP would not make any sense, because then Lightroom would not have to create a new file in the first place.

 

So this is not why a DNG is created. Adobe had no choice but to create a new file with the denoised pixels stored in that file. Despite what Eric writes (I assume for simplicity sake, because he obviously knows better), the Denoised DNG is not a raw file. It is a linear RGB file, just like panorama DNG and Merge to HDR DNG. Yes, this type of DNG behaves like a raw file in Lightroom, so you do not really see the difference, but that does not mean it is a true (mosaiced) raw file. Adobe did decide to embed the raw data in this DNG as well however, and that probably confuses those third part apps.

 


"It is a linear RGB file, just like panorama DNG and Merge to HDR DNG. Yes, this type of DNG behaves like a raw file in Lightroom, so you do not really see the difference, but that does not mean it is a true (mosaiced) raw file. Adobe did decide to embed the raw data in this DNG as well however, and that probably confuses those third part apps."

 

To build on that, in April there was an extensive discussion here about the precise contents of denoised DNGs, and I dug into the details with Exiftool. The Denoised DNGs contain two separate full-resolution image representations, stored in TIFF SubIFDs:

 

- The output of Denoise, encoded as Linear Raw 16-bit RGB, and

- The original Color Filter Array mosaic data, converted to Adobe's standard DNG representation (the same as you'd get by running DNG Converter).

 

(There are five other reduced-resolution representations as well.)

 

Rikk Flohr reported back from the Camera Raw team:

 

"The intent of the mosaic data being included in the Denoised result is not to extract an original file at a later date. It is more accurate to say the original mosaic data is included for future iterations of the tool to accurately reprocess the original data for improved models and other possible enhancements (excuse the pun).  Ultimately, there is no additional 'file' within to extract. "

 

When a third-party app first opens a denoised DNG, it sees the two full-resolution image representations. Even if the app knows how to interpret the Linear Raw representation (containing the denoised version), it may be choosing to open the Color Filter Array representation instead (the original version), not expecting to find both the Linear Raw and the CFA versions in the same file.

 

As an experiment during that discussion to verify my assumptions, using Exiftool I modified some denoised DNGs to remove the Linear Raw SubIFDs, and those modified DNGs opened in Adobe apps and a couple third-party apps.

1 reply

Keith Reeder
Keith Reeder
Participating Frequently
June 23, 2023

Enhanced files can certainly be opened in other programs, but the NR doesn't seem (in my attempts) to carry over - weirdly, the DNG files are as noisy in say, Capture One or On1 Photo RAW, as the native RAW files were before I applied Lr's AI Denoise.

 

This enhanced DNG (from a 5000 ISO Canon R7 CR3) is butter-smooth in Lr, as are Lr exports, but definitely not that when opened in Photo RAW:

 

100% crop:

 

DdeGannes
Community Expert
DdeGannesCommunity ExpertAuthor
Community Expert
June 23, 2023

Thanks for that info Keith, I am presently in Europe on an extended vacation May 5th and will return home in early August 2023.

Will check out when I return home and have access to my computer. Posting from my iPad.

So I guess the other apps are accessing the raw data from the original which is included in the DNG but are unable to apply the Adobe Denoise process.

 

Regards, Denis: iMac 27” mid-2015, macOS 11.7.10 Big Sur; 2TB SSD, 24 GB Ram, GPU 2 GB; LrC 12.5,; Lr 6.5, PS 24.7,; ACR 15.5,; (also Laptop Win 11, ver 24H2, LrC 15.0.1, PS 27.0; ) Camera Oly OM-D E-M1.
JohanElzenga
Community Expert
JohanElzengaCommunity Expert
Community Expert
June 24, 2023

@Keith Reeder , you stated

"As I point out, manual noise reduction is "baked in" to a DNG exported from Lr (along with pretty much any other adjustments I might care to make - that's one of the great things about Lr DNG exports) so why on earth should the same not be true of exported AI Denoised DNG files?"

I do not dispute this, if I choose to export the Enhanced-NR.DNG from LrC my choice would be to create a tiff. When you export as DNG what you get is a tiff data in a DNG wrapper.

I will wait and see how the feature be further developed. Thanks for your input.

 


@Keith Reeder : "Using Lr's manual NR, if I export a DNG, the effect of the NR is baked into the file just as I'd expect, and it's there for other programmes. It's illogical for AI Denoise not to work the same way."


No it's not there for other apps, except Adobe apps! That is true if you export as TIFF or JPEG, but not if you export as DNG. If you export as DNG, then you'll create a DNG with the original data intact and the edits stored in XMP. The third party app would have to know how to read Adobe develop settings xmp, but very few third party apps can do this. The few that can, usually read only a few settings like Exposure, crop and some other basic settings. I doubt there is any third party app that can read Adobe manual noise reduction settings in XMP.

 

This is not what happens when you use AI denoise however. The reason that AI denoise creates a DNG is that the algorithms are too slow to apply denoise non-destructively 'on the fly' like all other develop settings. Especially for people who do not have the latest and greatest GPU, it can take several minutes. Saving a new DNG with AI Denoise in XMP would not make any sense, because then Lightroom would not have to create a new file in the first place.

 

So this is not why a DNG is created. Adobe had no choice but to create a new file with the denoised pixels stored in that file. Despite what Eric writes (I assume for simplicity sake, because he obviously knows better), the Denoised DNG is not a raw file. It is a linear RGB file, just like panorama DNG and Merge to HDR DNG. Yes, this type of DNG behaves like a raw file in Lightroom, so you do not really see the difference, but that does not mean it is a true (mosaiced) raw file. Adobe did decide to embed the raw data in this DNG as well however, and that probably confuses those third part apps.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga
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