CR 17.0 AI Denoise from LRc ?

[Tokumeino]

Hi, as far as I understand, Camera Raw is now able to apply AI denoise, enhanced details and super-resolution without an intermediate disk-space-eater DNG file. Is it somehow possible directly within Lightroom Classic ? If not, what's the best workflow in your opinion ?

[dj_paige]

Not possible in LrC at this time. I do not know what the best workflow is.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

The workflow is to:

1. Edit in> Open as Smart Object in PS (creates a Tiff/PSD with the raw file available)
2. Once in PS, double-click the Smart Object Layer to open the Camera Raw plugin.
3. Edit with the new features
4. Return the Tiff/PSD to Lightroom by saving the file

To edit the settings again, select the Tiff/PSD in Lightroom and choose Edit in PS...

Choose Open Original in the dialog. 

[JohanElzenga]

As this creates a new TIFF which most likely eats even more disk space than that DNG, my advise would be to wait until this gets implemented in Lightroom Classic if saving disk space is your goal...

[Tokumeino]

I think that I'll do that. Thank you three for answering.

[JohanElzenga]

Hi @Rikk Flohr: Photography ,

Somebody else told me, but I had not tried it yet. There is a bug, or at least an incompatibility, here. If you do as you describe, open the TIFF again from Lightroom by using 'Edit Original', and then double click on the smart object to open ACR again, then you will see that the Denoise option has become deselected. You will have to do it again.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I guess, since Tiff is not a supported format for Denoise, I would expect that behavior. 
I am not seeing it lift the restriction on a second double-click. 

[JohanElzenga]

I'm not following you. I'm not denoising a TIFF (that is still not possible). TIFF is just a container for the raw file, which is embedded as a smart object. That raw file was denoised by ACR, but if you open it again in ACR by double clicking the smart object, it has lost the denoise setting.

In your own words: "To edit the settings again, select the Tiff/PSD in Lightroom and choose Edit in PS...

Choose Open Original in the dialog. "

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

When I send a raw file as a Smart Object, it works as expected and Denoise is available but returns to LrC in a Tiff Package. 

If I send a Tiff as a Smart Object, the Smart Object will open CR on double click  but will not allow Denoise to take place.  It also returns to LrC in a Tiff package. 

In both cases, I can send the file back to PS a second time, and CR will still open on double-click, but the constraints of raw v Tiff are still in place as far as Denoise is concerned.  Though the container making the round trip is a Tiff/PSD, the internal file, when raw, is editable again in CR. 

[JohanElzenga]

If I send a Tiff as a Smart Object, the Smart Object will open CR on double click  but will not allow Denoise to take place.  It also returns to LrC in a Tiff package. 

By @Rikk Flohr: Photography

Our messages crossed. This is not what I am talking about. I trust the message I just posted makes it clear what I do mean.

[JohanElzenga]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography Maybe this makes it clearer what I did:

Step 1: I send a raw file from Lightroom Classic to Photoshop as smart object:

Step 2: Once the file is in Photoshop, I double click the smart object so it opens in ACR. I set Denoise slider to 50:

Step 3: I save the file, close Photoshop, and go back to Lightroom Classic. The file is there, so I right-click it and choose 'Edit in Photoshop'. When asked, I select 'Edit Original':

Step 4: Once in Photoshop again, I double click the smart object so it opens again in ACR. All develop settings are still there, as expected. But the Denoise setting has disappeared. As not expected (at least not by me):

[umlautnord]

I have had this exact same issue.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

Thanks for the workflow clarifications, @JohanElzenga , I see the same as you here. 

I don't actually have to do the second round trip to induce the failure. 

1.  LR>PS as Edit in Open as Smart Object
2.  Double Click to invoke CR
3.  Apply Denoise settings - close CR Plugin
4.  From Photoshop - double-click the Smart Object again

Denoise from step 3 has been reset. 

Do you see this also?

I have a question for the CR team to see what their status is on this workflow. 

[JohanElzenga]

Yes, I see the same thing. It seems the Denoise settings are not saved in the smart object at all. Interestingly enough, the returned image in Photoshop does show the effect of Denoise on return the first time. So what is saved is an invisible layer with the denoised pixels, which is how smart objects are always displayed in Photoshop.

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

I am going to let the CR team rule here whether this Is PS or CR bad behavior, or just not complete in the implementation. 

[DdeGannes]

@Rikk Flohr: Photography , ok this is an interesting subject and I will await the comments from the Camera Raw / PS team. 
I the interim I will use the option to open the original raw image directly in PS / ACR to apply the new AI Denoise feature.

[JohanElzenga]

In the interim I will use the option to open the original raw image directly in PS / ACR to apply the new AI Denoise feature.

By @DdeGannes

And then do what with it? As a Lightroom Classic user (this is the Lightroom Classic forum) there is no advantage in using the new Denoise function of ACR, because there is no way to get that in Lightroom Classic, except by rendering an RGB image. That option is worse than rendering a DNG...

[DdeGannes]

@JohanElzenga @ When finished with Dnoise in ACR open in PS and then when finished in PS save as a tiff and discard the DNG.

If I need the tiff in LrC  syncronise the folder in LrC. All my raw images are imported to my Lightroom Catalog. I would then have a Enhanced NR tiff sitting alongside the original raw image.

[JohanElzenga]

I don't understand the advantage of this workflow compared to what you currently can do in Lightroom Classic. Using ACR and then saving a NR Tiff file means you'll have a rendered RGB file that is probably not only larger than the DNG that Lightroom Classic would produce, but also has more limitations if you want to make further edits: no raw profile, no white balance settings, no other raw-specific options (like lens profiles).

Do you think/expect that ACR does a better NR job than Lightroom Classic does and is that the reason you so desperately want to use it? I don't because the NR routines are the same. AFAIK, the difference is only in how the NR edits are stored: in a rendered file or as non-destructive edits of the raw file. But by rendering a tiff in Photoshop you'll take away that only difference...

[DdeGannes]

Re Johan "Do you think/expect that ACR does a better NR job than Lightroom Classic does and is that the reason you so desperately want to use it? I don't because the NR routines are the same. AFAIK, the difference is only in how the NR edits are stored: in a rendered file or as non-destructive edits of the raw file. But by rendering a tiff in Photoshop you'll take away that only difference..."

Looks as though I was mistaken, I have been searching online and have not found anything in the past 45 minutes. 
Thanks for the clarification. 

[umlautnord]

The one thing I'd note outside of the scope of the OP's question, but in the same vein as accessing ACR tech previews... ACR/Photoshop does also open up access to the beta Adobe Adaptive profile right now. When I want access to that, I'll do a Smart Object in TIFF roundtrip. I religiously use ACR snapshots every time I close the interface on the smart object in PS to get around the Denoise bug/issue.

It's an edge case, and again outside the scope of the OP's question. Still, it's an actual reason I see for dealing with the TIFF in similar circumstances. (And the only one.) Even if the Smart Object process theoretically allows for ongoing edits to the true RAW, it's a bigger file, and you have to go back to PS/ACR to do it.

Re the true original question, absolutely agree with you @JohanElzenga that there's no reason to do it right now, especially until the PS/ACR Denoise issue is fixed 🙂

[Conrad_C]

Just adding a note that I have seen posts in other threads/forums reporting the same loss of Denoise setting under this specific scenario, so it seems more widely observed in public than some other bugs.

[umlautnord]

Yes, that's a bit my fault for also not being sure where the best place to post was—apologies!

Sameer at Adobe has also flagged it as "investigating" in the Photoshop forum as well: https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-bugs/reopening-smart-object-dng-in-acr-resets-new...

[Rikk Flohr: Photography]

The Camera Raw team has weighed in. The Smart Object workflow for this feature is not yet supported but we are working on it for a future update. 

[umlautnord]

The Camera Raw team has weighed in. The Smart Object workflow for this feature is not yet supported but we are working on it for a future update. 

By @Rikk Flohr: Photography

Ah. That's a bummer. Thanks for the update, though, Rikk.

As I mentioned, though, the snapshot workaround does work for now on the Smart Object workflow side!