Format raw = format jpeg

[Emilie__]

Bonsoir

Après plusieurs heures de tentative, je viens vous demander de l'aide...

Depuis plusieurs mois j'ai un sony A7 III, je photographie en RAW, et je n'ai jamais eu de souci dans lightroom classic, en important mes photos j'obtenais bien mes photos brutes que j'avais juste à retoucher ensuite.

Tout à l'heure j'ai fait des photos, et quelle surprise de voir que les photos importées étaient déjà retouchées : température des couleurs, exposition... J'ai refait l'essai en photographiant en JPEG + RAW, et je m'aperçois alors que le format RAW importé dans lightroom cc est, sans pour dire pareil, quasiment identique à la photo en format JPEG !! Je ne comprends rien... J'ai essayé de modifier les paramètres définis etc, rien n'y fait je ne réussis pas à obtenir ma photo brute sans modifications.

Alors pour être sûre que ce n'est pas un souci venant de mon appareil photo, j'ai pris des anciennes photos avec lesquelles j'avais eu aucun souci à les obtenir brutes sur lightroom, et là en les important à nouveau, voilà que c'est comme si elles avaient été prises au format JPEG....

Je suis désemparée et vraiment frustrée de ne pas comprendre ce qu'il se passe.. J'ai eu du mal à retoucher mes photos comme je le voulais, et c'est normal puisque c'est comme si je partais d'une photo JPEG donc déjà modifiée...

Si quelqu'un a déjà rencontré le souci je suis preneuse d'idée pour solutionner mon problème.

Un grand merci aux personnes qui me répondront.. 🙂

Belle soirée à tous!

Emilie (en guerre avec le JPEG ! et Lightroom aussi ^^')

[thedigitaldog]

Not sure I fully understand what you're actually doing or the issue.

Raw+JPEG (which I don't recommend) will produce both of course. The raw is raw, just like if you didn't shoot Raw+JPEG and the JPEG is processed. It almost sounds like you're viewing the JPEG and not the raw? 

See: https://asktimgrey.com/2020/06/15/raw-plus-jpeg-confusion/

[Emilie__]

Ce que j'essaie de dire, c'est qu'au visuel, la photo ressemble à un jpeg. Les paramètres sont modifiées. Mais c'est pourtant bien le format raw que j'importe. 

Comme si lightroom apportait une modification, comme je l'ai expliqué : il augmente la température des couleurs ainsi que l'exposition.

Lorsque je visualise mes photos raw avec windows, la photo n'est pas retouchée elle est brute.

Lorsque j'ouvre la même avec lightroom, j'ai beaucoup plus d'exposition et les couleurs tirent vers le jaune. Alors que c'est bien un format raw. 

[dj_paige]

Lightroom Classic can have develop presets applied when you import. Perhaps this has been set for your Lightroom Classic (accidentally?) Check your import dialog box to make sure the Develop preset applied at Import is set to "None".

Also, are the sliders (except temperature or tint) in the basic panel set to zero? Also for some recent Nikon (and maybe other) cameras, there may be "presets" applied. 

[Emilie__]

Tout est réglé sur zéro oui à part température et teinte.

Et il est bien écrit "none" pour Develop Settings

[Per Berntsen]

The image is badly overexposed, which is confirmed by the histogram in Lightroom.

The Windows Photos app cannot display raw files, so it displays the embedded jpg preview created by the camera.

This jpg preview will include any settings you have applied in the camera, like picture styles, or whatever Sony calls them.

Although these settings may be included in the raw file, Lightroom doesn't understand them, and ignores them.

It seems that you have used a camera setting that darkens the image, which would explain the big difference in brightness between the raw file and the embedded jpg preview. The image you see on the camera monitor is the jpg preview (not the raw file), which leads you to believe that the image is correctly exposed, but in reality, it's badly overexposed. 

My suggestion is to turn off any picture styles or similar settings in the camera (set everything to zero or neutral).

This will give you a much better match between raw file and jpg preview.

[C.Cella]

@Emilie__ 

Comment @Per Berntsen à dit c'est possible que vous avez appliqué à vos images, en camera, un "Mode Creative" ou un "Effet Photo"

Donc vous pensez d'avoir bien exposé la photo, et la preview apparaît correcte, mais en réalité ce n'est pas le cas pour le RAW.

Je vous suggère de shooter toujours et seulement en RAW et regarder votre Histogramme pendant la prise de vue.

Vérifié d'avoir activé : "Aperçu prise de vue" et "Affichage Live View" soit aussi en modalité "Définit. d'effet activé".

[Per Berntsen]

@Emilie__ 

I suggest you shoot always and only in RAW and look at your Histogram while shooting.

By @C.Cella

The camera histogram is always for the camera-rendered jpg (embedded preview), even if you shoot raw only.

So any camera settings will affect the histogram, so that it may become highly misleading.

Furthermore, the jpg histogram does not not represent the dynamic range of the raw file. It might for instance indicate clipped highlights when there are none, or when highlight detail is easily recovered in the raw file. The camera histogram will be most accurate when all camera settings are zeroed/neutralized, but even then, it's only a rough indication.

Unfortunately, no camera that I know of offers a raw histogram. (except maybe Phase One)

[C.Cella]

@Per Berntsen 

The Histogram displayed during live shooting is taking the data form the sensor itself.

I have an old DSLR so I can only display it in live view but Mirrorless cameras can display it even in the viewfinder.

That histogram is small so it's not as "readable" as the one LrC displays BUT is reliable and it's our best (and only) tool to judge the exposure in camera.

Some cameras have waveform and that is even better and more accurate.

.

[C.Cella]

@Per Berntsen 

I went to a shop and tried a Sony α 7 III

The Histogram displayed live is a bit small (espctially compared to my Canon) but is still good to judge the exposure of the photo.

Better than nothing TBH. 

 

The other histogram that can be displayed in the info is better, more stretched.

[thedigitaldog]

The Histogram displayed live is a bit small (espctially compared to my Canon) but is still good to judge the exposure of the photo.

Better than nothing TBH. 

By @C.Cella

Ah no, it's not. In my case, the recommended exposure (for a JPEG) and its Histogram (and optimal exposure for raw) of off by nearly two stops. 

You have some reading on optimal exposure for raw to do (and exposure, for multiple decades without a Histogram, was possible for us professional film photographers, plus it's photography 101):

Articles on exposing for specifically and only raw:
http://www.onezone.photos
http://schewephoto.com/ETTR/
https://luminous-landscape.com/the-optimum-digital-exposure/
http://digitaldog.net/files/ExposeForRaw.pdf
https://www.fastrawviewer.com/blog/mystic-exposure-triangle
https://www.fastrawviewer.com/blog/red_flowers_photography_to-see-the-real-picture
https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/exposure-for-raw-or-for-jpegs
https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/beware-histogram
https://www.rawdigger.com/howtouse/calibrate-exposure-meter-to-improve-dynamic-range

[C.Cella]

"You have some reading on optimal exposure for raw to do"

You are assuming that I didn't do already.

For the past years I have relied on the in camera histogram, done all my tests and so on.

While the hsitogram  in live view is not 100% accurate I was never, ever off 2 stops.

My in camera hsitogram in live view has been accurate and I have NEVER found myself in LrC with a photo that had the histograms not how I expected and exposed.

Never!

"and exposure, for multiple decades without a Histogram, was possible for us professional film photographers, plus it's photography 101"

Done that, worked with view cameras as well.

So again thanks for the links.

.

[thedigitaldog]

"You have some reading on optimal exposure for raw to do"

You are assuming that I didn't do already.

By @C.Cella

If you did, I can't fathom how you wrote what you did about exposure and the Histograms:

The Histogram displayed live is a bit small (espctially compared to my Canon) but is still good to judge the exposure of the photo.

While the hsitogram  in live view is not 100% accurate I was never, ever off 2 stops.

By @C.Cella

Exactly how many stops was it off from the raw Histogram you viewed in what product? 

Ever shoot transparency film? Ever overexpose it 1/3 stop, which in many cases, renders it ready for the trash can.

Done that, worked with view cameras as well.

By @C.Cella

Why, then would you need a Histogram that lies about exposure? Let alone recommend one? 

[C.Cella]

@thedigitaldog 

I took now a photo of a graycard.

I exposed so the gray was exactly appearing in the middle of my live view histogram.

This is what I get in LrC only white balance done:

It is pretty much a perfect match of the live view histogram in my Eos 5D Camera.

I have also tested Leica , Fujifilm GFX 100 other high end cameras but as well Sony Alpha, Panasonic S1, Sigma FP L and my experience, my tests tell me the Live Histogram is very reliable.

I have tested the waveform in Canon R5 C and was accurate.

So based on my first hadn expereince, my testing (done all in the recent time) I recommend to use histogram in live view

I am not going to go back to this.

This afternoon in my attempt to help I have tried a Sony Alpha 7 III , I have chek the various options and I can't explain why @Emilie__  noticed that the photo was blown out only when opening it in LrC.

.

[thedigitaldog]

@thedigitaldog 

I took now a photo of a graycard.

I exposed so the gray was exactly appearing in the middle of my live view histogram.

By @C.Cella

Stop! You've gone far off the path of examing the raw exposure. There isn't anything in the Adobe Camera Raw engine that tells you about the raw exposure. 

Download a copy of RawDigger (after reading the articles provided), and you'll see why your analysis of the exposure above is flawed from the get go.  

[Per Berntsen]

@thedigitaldog is absolutely right about raw exposure vs jpg exposure.

For a less scientific article on raw exposure, see Exposing a digital image

[thedigitaldog]

The only camera system that I know of provides a Raw Histogram is PhaseOne! All others are Histograms of the JPEG and not “the camera sensor.”

Everything you thought you wanted to know about Histograms

Another exhaustive 40-minute video examining:

What are histograms? In Photoshop, ACR, Lightroom.

Histograms: clipping color and tones, color spaces, and color gamut.

Histogram and Photoshop’s Level’s command.

Histograms don’t tell us our images are good (examples).

Misconceptions about histograms. How they lie.

Histograms and Expose To The Right (ETTR).

Are histograms useful and if so, how?

Low rez (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjPsP4HhHhE

High rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Histogram_Video.mov

[Jao vdL]

Digitaldog is absolutely correct, there is not a single camera maker except for Phase One that shows an actual raw histogram on the camera. All of the histograms (even the live hsitogram!!) you see on every single camera out there is after the image has gone through the jpeg engine so the histogram is in the colorspace that you set in camera and there is usually significant overhead of 1/2 to a full stop above where it is blown out in the jpeg colorspace and the histogram on camera. On mirrorless cameras this is easy to see by changing the picture treatment. You'll see the picture in the viewfinder change as well as the histogram - i.e. the histogram is actually done from the output of the in-camera jpeg engine which is also used to display the image on the rear and in the viewfinder. Another way to show this is by setting a different white balance in camera. The histogram will change but changing white balance cannot have any influence on the raw data since all that is is direct info from the sensor!

[GoldingD]

A couple of items to check.

1. Any Develop setting being applied at import?

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/help/photo-video-import-options.html

https://helpx.adobe.com/ca_fr/lightroom-classic/help/photo-video-import-options.html

2. Any preset being applied at import?

(see above link)

3. In LrC, /preferences/presets/RAW Defaults/, anything odd, changed?

https://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom-classic/help/raw-defaults.html

https://helpx.adobe.com/ca_fr/lightroom-classic/help/raw-defaults.html

[Jao vdL]

My guess is that you have somehow changed the default for raw development to "camera settings". This setting is found in Lightroom's Settings in the preset tab. My guess is that you have it set there to camera Settings. The point of that setting is ... to make the raw rendering out of the box the same as the jpeg rendering! Note that there is no such thing as "raw photo without modifications". There is always a subjective interpretation implied in any raw rendering whether this is the profile Adobe created or something the camera maker came up with. unmodified raw files look horrible and typically very dark.

[Emilie__]

Merci à tous pour vos réponses, malheureusement je n'ai touché à rien et j'ai essayé vos idées mais rien ne résout mon problème. Voici une illustration...

Ma photo "brute" en l'ouvrant avec la visionneuse Windows

La même en l'ouvrant avec Lightroom :

Les paramètres :

Je pensais que c'était peut être l'aperçu intégré qui changeait la photo mais ça a marché sur une photo et pas les autres...

[Emilie__]

Auparavant lightroom m'affichait la photo comme dans la visionneuse Windows.

Nous sommes d'accord que là il m'affiche un réglage d'exposition (c'est trop en plus!) ?

[thedigitaldog]

Merci à tous pour vos réponses, malheureusement je n'ai touché à rien et j'ai essayé vos idées mais rien ne résout mon problème. Voici une illustration...

Ma photo "brute" en l'ouvrant avec la visionneuse Windows

My "raw" photo when opening it with the Windows viewer

By @Emilie__

No, that isn't the raw photo. That's the preview (JPEG) from the camera produced from the raw. It has no relationship to the actual raw data, nor what Lightroom Classic or Adobe Camera Raw (for that matter any raw converter) provides. 

[C.Cella]

@Emilie__

Pourriez-vous nous montrer la visualisation de la photo dans l'écran de la caméra (avec l'histogramme en camera)

.

[GoldingD]

Could it be that your monitor profile is defective?

see:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/photoshop-ecosystem-discussions/colours-not-matching-photoshop-vs-pho...

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/image-loses-color-when-sent-to-photosho...

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/unexpected-appearance-of-images/m-p/134...