Is there a future for LR Classic?

[Califdan2]

With this weeks announcement one has to wonder what Adobe's strategic plan is for Lightroom.  But, there hare hints.  First of all let's look at product naming.  Why would thay take the name of an existing product (LR CC) and give that name to a new product and then rename the prior product "Classic" (as in "old", or "obsolete")?

To me this is a strong hint that their strategic plan is to move forward with the new CC version and abandon what they now call Classic.  If that were not the case, why not call the pre-existing version "LR Pro", or :"LR Desktop" and the new one "LR Lite" or "Lightroom Elements" or "LR Web" or "LR Mobile"?  There were so many name alternatives that would have made more sense if their intention was to keep both products.  So, I suspect that keeping both products for the long term is not their intent.

Maybe the new CC product is fine for the casual user but the structure of the new LR CC is not conducive to the needs of the professional or advanced photographer.  These are people with multiple terabytes of RAW images,  These are people with multiple catalogs, these are people who do their own high end printing.  These are people who's very livelihood depends on advanced features in both the Library and the Develop module (among others).  I have no doubt that LR/CC will acquire the full range of tools from ACR, but the structure of LR/CC seems to preclude getting advanced features in the Library area.  And, as it seems to be a mainly mobile oriented tool set the idea of a robust print capability is somewhat suspect (how many people print form their iPhone?).

And then there is caqpacity.  Even if Adobe allowed unlimited cloud storage for no extra cost, who can afford the time required to upload 4 or 5 thousand images to the cloud after a shoot?   And, without a folder structure (the lack of which in CC seems to be a fundamental design construct) and non hierarchical keywords managing images becomes a nightmare. Not to mention the current lack of smart collections and publish services which many of us rely on quite heavily. 

So, I am scared that Adobe may just pull the plug on Classic in a year or two.  In fact they have already stated that they will no longer make changes to Classic other than in the Develop Module.  And they really have to do very little to incorporate new Develop Module features since they are coded in the RAW processor that is used by ACR for Photoshop, LR CC, LR Classic, and as I understand even Elements.  For LR Classic all they need to do is add the slider or panel. So, in essence they are stating that they will not be devoting resources to Classic other than adding a slider or panel to operate a new RAW Processor feature.

Remember when in CC/2015.2 they destroyed the Import Dialog in a misguided attempt to "modernize" the process (read dumb down the process)?  Remember the user backlash that eventually forced them to back track?  Well, they didn't give up.  Instead they are doing the same thing but just packaging it differently and extending it beyond just the import dialog.  The seem to be dumbing down the entire product (as they did with the import dialog)  but are trying to avoid the backlash by packaging it in a different product.  Think about this.  What would you be doing right now if they had announced that the only LR going forward was what they now call CC (or even the new CC with all the same develop module tools from Classic) and that the older version would no longer be supported?   I suspect this is their ultimate goal but they are stretching out the implementation to avoid the backlash. 

If you agree with my reasoning and have a problem with what I suspect is the ultimate goal, NOW is the time to let them know.  Don't wait till they pull the plug on Classic which I believe is the ultimate goal.  Let them know NOW that if they do they will have another "improved import dialog" disaster on their hands and it will be much worse as there are now some fine competitive products on the market where their customer base may flee to. 

NOW is the time to let them know that you want Classic to remain, to be supported, and to be upgraded with new features in ALL the modules (not just the Develop Module).   NOW is the time to let them know that LR/CC is not looking like it can be a long term solution to your needs.

Apologies for this rant but fear drives action and I'm scared.

Dan

[D Fosse]

I finally get it. It's obvious once you think about it. This is the brainchild of an external consulting firm, hired to handle branding. I know how this works, I've seen it firsthand:

These people don't have time for reality checks. They can't sell that. They sell a vision, and "the cloud" is perfect. It's almost a walk-over.

The problem, of course, is that once you've spent a couple of hundred thousand, or a million, on external consultants, you don't want all that money to be wasted. So your hands are tied.

But that also gives hope. This may not come from within. Internally, their priorities may not have changed at all. For the engineers and product managers, it's business as usual. They may even dislike this name as much as we do.

[nbirkett51]

Are professionals a market that is that interesting beside the billions of people using Instagram or similar gadgets ? Professionals will use (or already use) a third-party DAM (I mean, a real one, not the limited LR catalog that is lacking many features) + Photoshop + Camera RAW.

What third party DAM's do Pros use?  I'm not familiar with stand-alone DAM's (other than Bridge which isn't really a DAM)

[john beardsworth]

They don't generally use any DAM you won't have heard of - LR, Bridge, none, C1, Aperture. A few using things like Media Pro, iMatch. Only once you get to enterpri$e level will you see any more serious DAM in volume use.

[john beardsworth]

Lightroom's DAM is perfectly good for very many of those who earn their living from photography. Few third party DAMs ever display or output  photos in their adjusted appearance, so a combined DAM and editor like LR has great advantages in photography. Single user DAMs were making little money 10 years ago, and since then dedicated DAM has moved up market pricewise - and to the cloud.

There's obviously market space for a simplified Lightroom aimed at social use, and Adobe seems to think there's also a market for a more traditional product, though they're doing their best to frighten away those customers. It's a shame they didn't use their established Pro/Elements naming system.

[Blue Baron II]

Could you name some of the third party DAMs that pros use?  I would be interested in check them out.

[Samoreen]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Blue+Baron+II  wrote

Could you name some of the third party DAMs that pros use?  I would be interested in check them out.

Photo Supreme, Daminion, iMatch, Phase One Media Pro, digiKam,...

[Samoreen]

Samoreen  wrote

To say that is to say that Adobe is going to abandon professional photographers.

...

Are professionals a market that is that interesting beside the billions of people using Instagram or similar gadgets ?

I'll put my question another way : what percentage of the Lightroom customer base are professionals ?

[Jao vdL]

What do you mean by professional?

[Samoreen]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jao+vdL  wrote

What do you mean by professional?

Someone who makes a living from photography.

[Jao vdL]

Than it is only a small fraction for sure. The overwhelming majority is going to be hobbyists and enthusiasts and people that derive perhaps only part of their income from it. Many of those have gigantic libraries of images though.

[David Illig]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jao+vdL  wrote

What do you mean by professional?

Someone who makes a living from photography.

Good enough. Then there are the people who derive some part of their income from photography. And the skilled hobbyist who applies the same demanding standards to her/his work as a paid professional

[D Fosse]

Samoreen  wrote

I'll put my question another way : what percentage of the Lightroom customer base are professionals ?

That's just ridiculous. Of course the professional market is attractive. That's where everybody secretly wants to be. Why? Because the ambitious amateurs, which is a huge market, go where the pros go. If the pros abandon a product, it's going down.

[JP Hess]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/Jao+vdL  wrote

Than it is only a small fraction for sure. The overwhelming majority is going to be hobbyists and enthusiasts and people that derive perhaps only part of their income from it. Many of those have gigantic libraries of images though.

And I think that backfired on Adobe as far as Lightroom is concerned. When Lightroom was introduced Adobe touted the program as one for photography professionals. Adobe doesn't seem to be concerned about the hobbyist anymore. They seem to be geared toward the big corporations that have big budgets looking to spend money. Software design and develop is only a small arm of the Adobe corporate picture. I know someone who used to work for Adobe. His job was to travel the world working with corporations helping to develop marketing strategies. He had nothing to do with computers and software. There was a whole different team who stepped in to take over that job as part of the marketing picture. Adobe  as a corporation is looking to work with media giants who want to get their message on to TV screens, airplane screens, mobile phone screens, electronic billboards, every possible media outlet. Adobe isn't worried about whether or not you or I get our pictures of the kids shared on Facebook or Instagram. It seems that, in Adobe's opinion, Photoshop Elements is good enough for us, so they have thrown that at us as a standalone offering while they concentrate on where the real money is.

[Jao vdL]

I am pretty sure they understand the market far better than you think. They know a plurality currently is hobbyists that have expendable income (the retired person with the latest and greatest gear that goes on organized photo trips too Iceland would be a good example but this can also be the weekend warrior with a good outside job that invests a lot of time and income in photography), and some professionals (quite a few I know and work with use Lightroom (the Classic version) exclusively). I doubt the corporate market is a real driver for them with regards to Lightroom. They also know that there are many people that find this whole workflow of shooting your DSLR, taking out the card, plugging it into a reader, fudging with it in Lightroom before being able to share it online is just too much especially if your images are now locked in that desktop machine in the basement. Those folks still want high quality whether it be from their iPhone or their Leica (reference to the guy in the Adobe Max video). Those folks is who Lightroom CC is targeted at. Remember this is not just a desktop app, it is an ecosystem that keeps everything in sync across all your devices. Adobe just wants to tap into that market which potentially could be as large or larger than the hobbyists + pros segment which they already more or less saturated. These folks never print. They don't have time to layout a book. They serve images to their audience (which can be a lot bigger than most hobbyists ever get) through social media and they still want powerful editing tools. Lightroom CC is just camera raw (missing a few features for now) wrapped into an app accessing an online database of images. "Easy. Quick. Powerful. Your images everywhere." Would be the marketing message.

[Samoreen]

Well, 2 ACPS, 2 different opinions. Interesting. I'm teaching Lightroom to amateurs since about 5-6 years. A vast majority of them have difficulties with the catalog and complain about being forced to import images before working on them. Not even mentioning the concept of database. That's exactly what the new LR CC is targeting. No more catalog, no more folders, less features to learn, just feed the beast and it will take care of your images.

LR CC obviously wants to become a better, distributed Snapseed and that's exactly what many users want : those people who I wouldn't call "professionals" or "expert amateurs". That's where the market is and it's a good reason to question the future of LR Classic.

[JP Hess]

The catalog is a simple concept to understand. It just takes a little rethinking. I really don't like the idea of just turning images over to the new Lightroom CC. It's kind of like the old Picasa mentality, and I quit using that program because I didn't like the way it took over and managed everything. I hated it. I want control of where my images go and how they are organized. Lightroom Classic allows me to do that.

[Samoreen]

JimHess  wrote

The catalog is a simple concept to understand.

Not for people not having a technical/computing background.

[JP Hess]

I don't really have a "technical background". I just took the time to understand how the catalog works. Too many people install Lightroom and assume it works like any other image program. They don't want to take the time to even think about what is going on. If they would just invest a couple of hours in learning a simple concept to begin with, that's all it would take. But they won't do it. Instead, they'll turn to what I see as the coming disaster, the new Lightroom CC. I hope they enjoy it.

[nbirkett51]

JimHess  wrote

I don't really have a "technical background". I just took the time to understand how the catalog works. Too many people install Lightroom and assume it works like any other image program. They don't want to take the time to even think about what is going on. If they would just invest a couple of hours in learning a simple concept to begin with, that's all it would take. But they won't do it. Instead, they'll turn to what I see as the coming disaster, the new Lightroom CC. I hope they enjoy it.

I'm with Jim on this - invest a bit of effort in the learning and the concept is quite understandable.

However, I think this discussion is pointing out another issue - the 'younger generation' think they are computer literate because they can use Twitter and Facebook and watch videos on their cell phone.  But, that is not true literacy - just a superficial mastery of a simple application programmes.  Adobe is buying into that approach with the new LR CC.  Many people are looking for the 'create a Mona Lisa' button rather than invest the effort into learning how to create art.  Maybe the magical AI button will work for selfies and the like.  But, for real art, you need more control and more mastery of the software process.  That is being lost.

And, Adobe still is not addressing the core problem with the new LR CC - the enforced upload to their cloud serve of all of every user's photographs.

[john beardsworth]

"And, Adobe still is not addressing the core problem with the new LR CC - the enforced upload to their cloud serve of all of every user's photographs."

You can actually switch off the sync button and store stuff locally. Why you'd want to do this when using LRCC is the big question.

[nbirkett51]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/john+beardsworth  wrote

"And, Adobe still is not addressing the core problem with the new LR CC - the enforced upload to their cloud serve of all of every user's photographs."

You can actually switch off the sync button and store stuff locally. Why you'd want to do this when using LRCC is the big question.

Is this a change that Adobe has made in the past couple of days to the new LR CC software?  Because, it runs counter to all of the information I have seen from Adobe and commentators about the sync process.  That said that: Yes, you can still store a copy locally.  But, you were still required to sync all of your photos to the cloud.

And, with the button you are describing, can users upload a part of their library to the cloud (eg. their 'keepers' only)?

[Jao vdL]

nbirkett51  wrote

Is this a change that Adobe has made in the past couple of days to the new LR CC software?  Because, it runs counter to all of the information I have seen from Adobe and commentators about the sync process.  That said that: Yes, you can still store a copy locally.  But, you were still required to sync all of your photos to the cloud.

No this button has always been there. Even in the mobile apps you can stop syncing and just use it locally using the exact same button. However, in the end when you turn it on again, it will sync everything.

And, with the button you are describing, can users upload a part of their library to the cloud (eg. their 'keepers' only)?

No. Lightroom CC uploads everything to the cloud. No way currently to selectively push things. I am sure we'll get local repositories at some point though.

[john beardsworth]

The button is in the cloud usage panel that opens when you click the cloud icon at the top right of the interface. It simply switches sync on or off. If you never switch it on, nothing goes to/from the cloud, and you could leave it off forever. So you could conceivably use it to avoid sending anything to the cloud, but then nothing would sync to other devices and there would be nothing for the search feature to find. Adobe probably don't mention it because it's not the way they've designed LRCC to be used.

[bitm07]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/john+beardsworth  wrote

The button is in the cloud usage panel that opens when you click the cloud icon at the top right of the interface. It simply switches sync on or off. If you never switch it on, nothing goes to/from the cloud, and you could leave it off forever. So you could conceivably use it to avoid sending anything to the cloud, but then nothing would sync to other devices and there would be nothing for the search feature to find. Adobe probably don't mention it because it's not the way they've designed LRCC to be used.

and long may it stay there.  I have no objection to Adobe making LR cloud storage based providing there is an option to opt out.  I'd rather stop using LR than join the additional $10 a month per 1TB of online storage space cash cow.

[Samoreen]

https://forums.adobe.com/people/john+beardsworth  wrote

You can actually switch off the sync button and store stuff locally. Why you'd want to do this when using LRCC is the big question.

Yes, but Sensei will only work on files stored in the Adobe cloud.