Lightroom 3 Develop previews different from Loupe view?

[Tim Woodward]

Hi there, I have a weird problem and it's very difficult to explain but I will try 🙂 I have a Macbook and a secondary profiled monitor connected for a better view of how the image will turn out once developed. I have just noticed (as I have only just started using the secondary monitor) that in standard view once I have started editing an image in develop, and then go back to loupe view, and then back into develop, the image on the secondary monitor displays identically for a second or two and then degrades. Becomes very grainy. If I then go back to loupe view it smoothes out. At first I thought this was because Lightroom uses the RAW data to compile the standard preview in develop as opposed to a preset preview (1680 high in my case) in loupe view, and that the develop module was obviously providing a more accurate view - but this isn't a more accurate view, as when I go 1:1 the image is smooth and not grainy!

To further illustrate, lets say I choose an image I have edited before, the view is the same in both modules initially, but as soon as I alter the image in any way in develop the preview degrades. Lets again say I have a degraded preview on screen, standard view, in develop module. If I then flick to another image that image is smooth for a second or two and then degrades too - you can see it happen! If I then edit the image whilst in develop, then I go back to loupe view, the image is still degraded, but then if I stay in loupe view and go 1:1 the secondary monitor (which is still displaying standard preview) picks up the change and shows an accurate smooth detailed view.

This is very weird but does mean that using Lightroom for serious editing is not possible as I can't trust the preview (unless I keep flicking back to loupe view!) except at 1:1 which anyone with a 14Mp camera knows is so big you cant get an overview of what you are doing. 1:1 is only useful for sharpening and noise reduction really. Please note: this is not visible when minor edits are made, but I often convert my images to B&W with split toning, and when you do this and say bring down the blue mix sliders down to increase sky definition (which can introduce artifacts) the degrading is severe - but like I say it isn't true or real as 1:1 view shows nice smooth tone variation. I have rebuilt previews to match the resolution of my larger monitor, deleted preview files, not sure what else to do except forget using the bigger monitor as the effect is far more noticeable on that! I have attached files (which I hope upload OK as I couldn't preview) showing the problem. If anyone else has this issue I would be very interested to hear about it!

Tim.

Loupe View

Develop View

Develop View 1:1

[Amberklene]

Just checked this evening, and clearing the cache to ensure nothing left over from LR2 made no difference. After reading this useful thread at work (don't tell the boss) I have looked more closely at the problem at home this evening.

The problem only occurs when set to 'fit'  and you can clearly see the sudden change in noise/definition when swopping from either fill or any of the zoom ratios to 'fit' in the develop module.  You cannot realistically edit an image with this problem, and I will argue that point to the cows come home.

If anyone has the OnOne free LR presets installed, the problem is very significant in the 'Wow Edge 7' preset which has the noise and sharpening controls at maxima's and minima's. I recommend anyone with any curiosity to download these (they are worth having) as they show the problem up big time.

Will attempt to upolad a bug report later in the week.  I see little point in uploading any further examples.

[tomtrippe]

Great! I encourage the bug report because no Adobe people seem to be paying

attention to this forum. The bug seems associated with Canon CR2 raw

format. It occurred for me with the zoom at FIT and 4:1. With zoom at

FILL, the noise correction turns on or off depending on how large I make the

window, so it seems to be related to the magnification on the screen.

Tom

[Amberklene]

Bug report uploaded

[hhansard]

There is a known issue with develop previews that are non 1:1 on large monitors (say 30”) at 2560x1600 or greater.  Don’t know if this fits you.  There are a couple of threads on this and a bug posted. No timeframe for fix.

It is recommended workflow for LR to apply sharpening at 1:1 only.  Again several threads on this one as well. Not a bug, as of current thinking.

I believe there is another thread and explanation by Adobe on why develop and library previews can differ.

[lackyluc]

Same problem with Samsung NX10 and SRW file Raw.

Lightroom 3.3 64 bit

Win 7 Ultimate 64 bit

512 Ram Video Nvidia GeForce 8800M GTS

[Sean McCormack]

Folks, it's been clearly stated that Lightroom does not apply noise reduction or sharpening at views under 1:1, except where there's high ISO and the noise reduction would be clearly visible at lower sizes. It's not a bug, it's a design choice. Why? Because it would make Library intolerably slow recreating previews all the time. The preview behaviour has been like this all along, in fact in LR2, it was only visible at 1:1. If you want a change, then a feature request is the way to go, not a bug report. http://adobe.com/go/wish

The more people that request a feature, the more visible it becomes, helping it onto the to-do list.

[areohbee]

Seán McCormack wrote:

The more people that request a feature, the more visible it becomes, helping it onto the to-do list.

Really? I would have guessed Adobe relied more on independent market research (and their own thinking) than number of feature request submissions. I've always hoped one FR was enough... - may need to rethink my FR strategy...

[Sean McCormack]

Rob,

If you voted in an election, would you think one vote would win over many?

There are loads of things that influence Adobe. Enough people asking for a particular feature is one of them. It's not rocket science.

Take tethered shooting. How many people think they need it? Answer: A very vocal group of pros. I certainly use it, but unless you understand why, you may not feel you need it.

[Jeff Schewe]

areohbee wrote:

...may need to rethink my FR strategy...

Yes, you do...democracy does have a role in feature requests if they are well thought out and submitted with a reasonable rational for the request. Attitude is less useful.

[Tim Woodward]

Then tell us Sean - why does Lightroom apply these adjustments and display them at standard and other views in the Library module (I can switch from Develop module where changes are not displayed at standard sized preview into Library Loupe view and lo and behold changes are shown! Your comment is flawed. Also, why does it display these adjustments for JPEG and some RAW formats - this "feature" does not effect all images. This is a bug and a ridiculous situation!

[Amberklene]

Lets not get  all heated up over this 

We have three options here:

1. Its a bug (still my personal choice).As has been stated this only happens in the develop module and to have a display that does not reflect your adjustements is utter madness - regardless on what size shape or format you are viewing it in! If the speed issue was so bad, noise reduction would not be displayed in ANY form - until you returned to the library module.

2. Sloppy code

3. They considered, as stated, the hit on speed would be too much, which I find hard to swallow, from personal experience the software designers expect us to rush out and buy the latest and fastest machines to run their programs, so why would they do this?

Can anyone name another graphics package that performs this way?

[Tim Woodward]

I think what frustrates me is that Adobe don't read this (officially) and there is no way, repeat no way for us to get any dialogue going with them at all. They do not answer bug reports or feature suggestions, they just don't enter into dialogue at all - isn't that the way with all this massive IT companies? They cut down all support costs, offering no support whatsoever to existing users unless you pay for it per incident and then expect us to get all excited about a new version of our beloved software and flock to upgrade! But how do they know we love their bloody software if they don't talk to us - ever! I won't be upgrading Lightroom again until I here from you guys that version whatever cures this, it's just insulting being treated this way. It's not just Adobe, it's anyone you care to mention - after sales service is non-existent, they just sit there and make massive profits without offering any service at all other than putting a CD into a box and shipping it to you. For an instance Spotify have not been able to master gapless playback using their client software for their music streaming service for more than two years - two years! And all you get is a lame excuse once a year on the Get Satisfaction forum - oh, and lots of persuasive advertising to extend your subscription and recommend their services - what is wrong with these people? Don't they know service is what keeps customers - As far as Adobe is concerned they should remember there is such a thing as Aperture out there!

[areohbee]

Tim,

I feel ya.

I hope for a new day and a new way...

Its tempting to use Bibble, just because the employees participate in the forums...

As you said, Adobe's lack of dialog puts them in the majority, but that dont make it right...

Aperture will never be a potential Lightroom killer unless it's ported to Windows. I secretly hope some powerful but new-minded company steps up with a real threat to Lightroom, and forces Adobe to compete not only product-wise but customer interaction-wise.

PS - If I were Adobe, I wouldnt participate in the forum either - the amount of hostility they would have to bear at this point would be ... cant think of a word for it. Still, they could invent other means to communicate to their customers...

R

[Sean McCormack]

Library Loupe view and Develop are different beasts and always have been Tim. There are many, many discussions on this here, so I'm not going to repeat them.

[tomtrippe]

Where has it been clearly stated except by others who are repeating this

inaccurate statement? It does not describe the behavior that I have

observed and reported. The behavior is clearly not a feature, or if it is,

it is so bad that it should be reported as a bug.

Tom Trippe

[Tim Woodward]

Hey ho its version 3.4 and whilst I download (it's free so worth a try!?) I wonder if I will be able to see the edits I have made to my Canon raw files in the Develop module, or whether I shall still have to keep switching between Library and Develop every time I want to see an adjustment at anything other than 1:1!?

[Amberklene]

3.4 identical - installed some time ago. First thing I did was open the file that brought it to my attention in the first place, saw it was still an issue and cursed.

I have become adept at spotting the images that I need to keep dropping back into the library module to check that  I have not over sharpened etc.

Most of the time it is not an issue and I can carry on working.

As far as this thread being listed as being probably answered.... Nope not yet...

www.paulclarkphotography.co.uk

[TK2142]

I have the same problem. Chroma noise reduction does not seem to be applied in smaller than 1:1 views in the Develop module.

I agree that adjustments to sharpening, etc. should be made while looking at a 1:1 view, but of course there should be a way to judge one's editing efforts on a downscaled image as well.

It is completely unacceptable to be forced to go the the Library module to get a downscaled rendering of the current edits.

I do not only see differences regarding chroma noise reduction (resulting in ugly grainy, Develop module views) but also in highlight rendering. There are quite non-subtle differences in how some highlights are shown between the Library and the Develop module views.

It doesn't make sense for me that the Library module shows a more accurate downscaled version of the 1:1 view than the Develop module. If anything, it should be the other way round as it would be excusable to lose accuracy in favour of speed while browsing (Library). The image editing activity (Develop) should always be enabled with the best possible preview, no matter the magnification.

I personally respect Sean and others who comment that the issue is not a bug but "as designed", however, I cannot accept that. To me, very clearly, the current behaviour is a bug and bug reports should be responded to as if they were "feature requests", if that's necessary.

[TK2142]

I created a bug report for this in the new feedback forum. If you have this problem, follow the link and click the "+1" button and optionally leave a comment about your specific observations/arguments.

[tomtrippe]

I agree that the problem still exists in Lightroom 3.4. Besides this

thread, several of us have submitted bug reports and requests for features,

so I'm disappointed. Let's try TK2142's suggestion.

Tom Trippe

[AdamDaleuk]

Hi,

I'm a complete newbie to LR and have just downloaded the trial version but after editing my very first RAW image with it (Nikon NEF) I encoutered the exact same problem, hence why I found this thread.

Just wondering if anyone has heard of any solutions as of yet and if anyone has experience in using Aperture or Bibble at all as for me this problem with Lightroom is turning me of it quite considerably, especially after experiencing problems with Photoshop, which is why I tried LR.

Cheers

[tomtrippe]

I haven't found a solution, but I have gotten used to it, switching to

Library mode when I want to be sure that the noise reduction is being

applied in the Fit magnification. This is a drag, but a small thing

relative to the benefits of Lightroom, so I still use Lightroom except when

I have to use Photoshop for selections, masks, layers, etc. I'm still

hoping that Adobe wakes up on this one and fixes it.

Tom

[TK2142]

tomtrippe wrote:

I'm still hoping that Adobe wakes up on this one and fixes it.

Tom

The problem is that Adobe doesn't see the need for a "fix" as the Develop mode views work "as designed".

My ->bug report was generally met with the response "It is not a bug, it works as designed".

I therefore created a -> feature request to ask for better quality views in the Develop module.

Please follow the "feature request" link and vote for it by clicking on the "+1" button if you believe that Develop module views should be accurate rather than fast.

It seems that ->a new approach that incrementally provides more accurate views as they become available is probably the key to this problem.

[tomtrippe]

If they really believe that, then they accept that their product is very

poorly designed. That is sad, because I don't think that their products are

generally poorly designed. It is just that in this instance they are

ignoring the large number of complaints and giving flimsy excuses for not

dealing with them. They need to wake up and give this problem to some new

people in their organization. Many of us have spent hours and days trying

to detail this problem for them but to no avail. I am not going to waste

more time on it. If they don't wake up, then too bad for them and their

product.

Tom

[Tim Woodward]

I am looking forward to the next chargeable upgrade so I can write and tell them why I am not buying it!! Unless this is fixed of course? Has anybody here moved over to Aperture or does anybody have any experience of it?