Lightroom 5 ICC profiles clipped shadows under OSX

Explorer ,
Dec 27, 2013 Dec 27, 2013

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi, I've just found a really bad issue occurring in Lr 5 (but also in all other Lightroom versions) under Mac OSX 10.9 with a calibrated monitor: dark shadows (from a value of 20 to 0) are all clipped (pure black with no detail and no textures) while the histogram remains ok, indicating NO clipped shadows at all. This issue afflics also ACR.

Photoshop for now is the only software under MAC that reproduces dark shadows correctly: Library Module shows a bit darker and shifted shadows than Ps but acceptable, Develop Module is really bad showing brutally clipped shadows (but you work in the Develop Module right?!).

The same problem occurred also in OSX 10.8 but it was related only to LUT profiles, creating a Matrix based profile problems were solved.

Now the issue occurs with both Matrix and LUT profiles, v2 and v4. There's no apparent way to make Lr working right.

Under Windows no problems at all: Bridge, Photoshop, ACR, Lr (Library Module and Develop Module) show the same correct NOT clipped shadows.

I tested 8 different Mac running 10.9 with different GPU, different monitors, different profiling Softwares (Color Eyes Display Pro, Eizo Color Navigator, BasICC Color, i1 Profiler). Same results.

I tried to change the gamma value (2.2, sRGB, L*) problems remain. I tried to change ICC version (v2, v4) problems reamain. I tried to change profile type (LUT, MATRIX) problems remain.

How can a photographer work professionally on RAW images if shadows are bad reproduced?

Why Photoshop can reproduce shadows correctly while Lr isn't able to do that?

Why this happens only on a Mac enviroment?

Is Lr based on ColorSync (that can't handle profiles correctly) while Ps isn't (because it can handle and it has no problem)?

Please Adobe, FIX IT for all professional photographers, we can’t use Lr for serious works under Mac.

Max Ramuschi

Adobe Certified Expert

Views

25.3K

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines

correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , Oct 22, 2014 Oct 22, 2014

Hi Folks,

We have up-leveled this issue, identified the source and we are currently testing a solution. We will provide more information as it becomes available.

Kelly C.

Lightroom QE

Likes

Translate

Translate
replies 107 Replies 107
Explorer ,
Aug 09, 2014 Aug 09, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

(anybody tried this:)

use "proof" function in Lightroom and apply the monitor Icc profile as "proof"

suddenly LR shows picture perfect and you can easely see the difference (shadow clipping) with "proof" checked on/off


cant be anything wrong with ICC profile since you can "proof" it ?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Aug 09, 2014 Aug 09, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Yeah I discovered that too. Apparently turning on proof forces Lightroom to use Adobe's color management routine instead of Apple's, avoiding the problem. It does slow down develop though. See here: Jao's photo blog: Serious color management bug in Mac OS 10.9 "Mavericks"

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Aug 09, 2014 Aug 09, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

nice blog you have

sound crazy, but

perhaps mac are confused with two libraries / two colorsync folders?

factory display profile are in LIbrary/colorsync/profiles...etc.

current profile are in users/myname/library/colorsync/profiles....etc

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Aug 09, 2014 Aug 09, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Thanks,

I don't think that's the issue. Mac OS X until 10.8 did this just fine. In 10.9 it does use the correct profile. It just does something wrong with the gamma curve. The bug was introduced with 10.9 Mavericks. It is also present in the Yosemite beta. You even get the problem when you only use the factory profile with a Mavericks machine out of the box and using iPhoto or preview. There is no fix except doing the soft proof. The problem is present for every single type of calibration hardware that I have tested. It's curious that this is not more widely known. It is quite subtle though and my guess is that even many seasoned pros don't notice this problem as many might not be focused on the deepest shadows and Photoshop doesn't have the problem anyway and you only run into this in Lightroom Develop and in Aperture. I have submitted a bug report to Apple but they have not acted on it yet. I even sent Tim an email.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Aug 09, 2014 Aug 09, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

its strange that not more people doesnt seem to notice this problem..

perhaps its because Lighroom has default very "black" design, mostly black with some middle greys, if you use white background its easier to notice it

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Aug 10, 2014 Aug 10, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Jao vdL wrote:

It's curious that this is not more widely known.

Indeed. There have been a couple of threads on the Luminous Landscape forum which I immediately connected to this; and I in some of them I have tried to direct people to this thread. But there seems to be a reluctance to accept that there could be anything "wrong" with Apple's color management, so it all fizzled out into nothing.

Which is a shame, because it won't get fixed unless people put their finger on it and report it.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Aug 10, 2014 Aug 10, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I cant use Lightroom anymore because of this strange issue, have to go "back" to Bridge and ACR

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Aug 10, 2014 Aug 10, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I generated some further quantification of this problem. It is not pretty. Jao's photo blog: Further quantification of the Mavericks color management problem. Hopefully somebody at Apple will finally pick up on this.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Aug 14, 2014 Aug 14, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Tried Yosemite Beta 1. Same issue.

OSX Preview works correctly while Lr is still buggy. I was thinking: why Lightroom uses OSX libraries for color management? Why doesn't it have an independent color management engine? The solution seems so simple....

Can Windows handle LUT ICC profiles? It seems it can't. If you open a photo in Windows Preview you can see totally wrong shadows (like in Lightroom on OSX Mavericks), but on Windows platform Lightroom works correctly. I can't understand.

Does Lightroom Pc version have an independent color management system unlike the Mac version one?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Aug 14, 2014 Aug 14, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Max_Ramuschi wrote:

Does Lightroom Pc version have an independent color management system unlike the Mac version one?

I believe that is the case. The way I understand it (not having a degree in computer science), is that in Mac OSX, color management is handed over to Apple's ColorSync. On Windows there is no equivalent to ColorSync, so it's done by the application using the Adobe Color Engine (sort of a separate module). I could be wrong, information about this is hard to find.

In Photoshop there is an added complication with the OpenGL engine, which in turn takes over display color management - unless Photoshop is set to operate in "Basic" mode.

Can Windows handle LUT ICC profiles?

As per above, Windows doesn't do any color management, it's all done by the application. All Windows does is make the profiles available for the application. This includes the "native" Windows apps - some are color managed, others not.

So it could well be that some applications don't handle LUT profiles. I have Eizo ColorNavigator set to make LUT profiles (in Windows 7), and haven't seen problems anywhere with that. I certainly don't see any black clipping (which I have specifically been looking for lately, for other unrelated reasons).

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Aug 30, 2014 Aug 30, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I started using Windows 8.1 two weeks ago, here is the sad truth (sad for Mac users obviously - me included):

- Yes Windows has its own Color Management System

- Yes It can handle LUT and Matrix Profile way better than OSX, Windows Preview is color managed and it shows perfect colors.

- Yes Lightroom works great: no shadows clipped, no differences* of colors and shadows between Library and Develop (on Windows platform OS Preview, Bridge, ACR, Lightroom, Photoshop show matching colors and shadows).

* the 90% of photos I checked were indistinguishable between Library and Develop. The 10% shows lighter shadows in Develop Module but the difference is really subtle (absolutely negligible).


Personally I don't like Windows OS for its long time characteristic (drivers conflict, reset, random program exits, out of memory messages etc - on Windows 8.1 all this happens less fequently indeed), so I hope Apple put a fix in Yosemite... If you are trying the beta version and have any news please write them here.


Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Aug 30, 2014 Aug 30, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Max_Ramuschi wrote:

- Yes Windows has its own Color Management System

If you're referring to WCS it's mainly an empty framework just sitting there. It's all ready, but not put to any use yet. In Windows all color management is performed by the applications, not the OS.

Personally I think the current situation is a good one. Windows' hands-off policy makes troubleshooting much easier, and it removes one potential source for bugs.

Max_Ramuschi wrote:

Personally I don't like Windows OS for its long time characteristic (drivers conflict, reset, random program exits, out of memory messages

I can see why some people would prefer OS X over Windows, but that's the wrong reason. That was true in Windows 98 and ME, but from NT/2000 onwards Windows has been rock solid. Even Vista was far better than its reputation. I never see any of those things, never have, and those who do must have very poorly set up systems.

A more valid reason is that the Win 8 interface is IMO ugly and crude. Yes, that matters when I'm looking at it all day. I'm sticking with 7 for as long as possible. They did it right there.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Aug 30, 2014 Aug 30, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Rock solid? Not really: Win 8.1 update 1 has a good interface, but in two weeks I had several Graphic card reset, the bluetooth driver cause iTunes exit issue, Photoshop out of memory (same memory of my mac, same operation, same photos) etc, on my DELL Mobile 4800 Workstation (no poor components).

It could be an empty framework but does just work as Colorsync (way better ideed): you can load LUT profile into your Graphic card using Windows color management (not third party softwares), Windows own system preview is color managed and Photoshop can use WCS to do color compensation... I don't want more. Ok the desktop and icons aren't color managed, but even OSX desktop isn't managed (from Mountain Lion), besides no color managed application won't work in OSX just as in Win (some browser for example).

Everyone has his own opinion: for me Win for now is the right platform to work with. Win has taken a step forward, OSX some backwards (from ML).

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Sep 18, 2014 Sep 18, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Small update. Apple brought out 10.9.5. This seems to fix the clipped shadows problem in every app except Lightroom! Aperture, preview, iPhoto, etc. now all work fine, except for Lightroom Develop. Strange.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Sep 26, 2014 Sep 26, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Well, I have Yosemite beta installed on my Mac and the issue is still there....

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Sep 26, 2014 Sep 26, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Adobe says it's an OSX issue and won't do anything, Apple doesn't care at all about this problem (maybe they're too busy working on an OSX instant messaging App or new effects for Photo Booth.......). Good times for pro users.....

I can't stand using Win, but I can't go back to OSX until things get fixed. Last OSX with a serious color management was Lion 10.7 (desktop, dock, icons, preview were all color managed and no issue with both LUT and Matrix profiles), but Apple won't let you go back installing an older OSX on recent computers.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2014 Sep 26, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

The issue did get fixed in Aperture without an update to it just by a

system update, which makes me think that Adobe could probably fix it by

making sure to address the color management system the right way or by

simply using their own color management routines in Develop.

On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 7:45 AM, Max_Ramuschi <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Sep 28, 2014 Sep 28, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

I agree.

I was thinking about this fact: why a program that suks like Adobe Bridge can handle correctly Matrix and LUT profiles (even in Mavericks) and shows rigth previews (shadows, colors, everything) while Lr, which should be a professional tool, does not?

Are we sure that this is an Apple bug?

We all know that Apple has done some steps back when it comes to color management (I think everyone wants back overall system color management - on wide gamut monitors there are some icons in the dock and on the desktop that hurt my eyes when I look at them - and a decent preview - seems it has been fixed right? -), but Adobe? They had been informed since Lr 5.2 and what did they do (now Lr is 5.6)?

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Sep 28, 2014 Sep 28, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Ok, waiting for Yosemite final release, I switched back to Mountain Lion (the latest consistent OSX to work with - with compromises).

Here what it happens: as mentioned earlier in this thread, when you use a Matrix based profile, Library Module, Develop and Photoshop show perfect identical images; when you use LUT based profiles, Lightroom shows clipped shadows while Photoshop is perfect, but (I didn't remember this particular) in Mountain Lion, Library Module and Develop Module are always identical.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Oct 06, 2014 Oct 06, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi All,


I've also the same issue, Mavericks 10.9.5 / Lr 5.6.

Any chance to have Adobe more involved on this? I suspect the normal behavior doesn't include Library and Develop Modules with these differences in terms of shadows management. If it's matter of pointing to the right routines, I think this is something Adobe can fix without any support by Apple. Am I wrong?

Thank you

Andrea

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Community Expert ,
Oct 06, 2014 Oct 06, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Yes Adobe can fix this. Apple has fixed it for their own software mostly except for Safari which means that Adobe just needs to access the right routines so that the tone curve doesn't get dropped for sRGB toned data. Don't know who to ask anymore.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Oct 06, 2014 Oct 06, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Maybe Chris Cox can escalate internally this.

Lightroom 5 ICC profiles clipped shadows under OSX

He is the official representative for this issue, and Adobe employee.

Please help me to push the right attention on that thread.

Thank you very much

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
New Here ,
Oct 06, 2014 Oct 06, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

sorry, he is not Adobe employee. Just twitted to an Adobe employee, we'll see.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Explorer ,
Oct 16, 2014 Oct 16, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Ok guys I've just installed Yosemite and guess what? Nothing has changed. But times are getting even worse for photographers: if you use a Matrix profile Lr is bad while Bridge, ACR and Ps are ok, if you use a LUT profile (my Eizo CG pro display works way better with LUT profile) Lr is bad again, but even ACR shows bad shadows! With LUT profiles (which are the best ones) in ACR occurs the same issue of bad shadows rendering.

Now Adobe MUST do something.

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines
Adobe Employee ,
Oct 22, 2014 Oct 22, 2014

Copy link to clipboard

Copied

Hi Folks,

We have up-leveled this issue, identified the source and we are currently testing a solution. We will provide more information as it becomes available.

Kelly C.

Lightroom QE

Likes

Translate

Translate

Report

Report
Community guidelines
Be kind and respectful, give credit to the original source of content, and search for duplicates before posting. Learn more
community guidelines