LR compatibility with Canon 5D Mark iv raw file format?

[jeffreym95]

will LR be able to read the 5D Mark iv's camera raw file format? at least when it's putting out regular raw files.  I know that an update to LR was necessary for reading the 80D file format

[Todd Shaner]

jordant70096652 wrote:

Ive uploaded some examples to dropbox, Both images have had the same preset applied and the difference is noticeable.

The preset you are applying is causing the issue.

To determine what's happening Reset both files and apply just the preset to the 5D MKIII and MKIV CR2 files, Export both files to DNG file format, and then upload the DNG files to Dropbox. The preset's settings will be in the DNG file metadata and allow us to see what's causing the issue.

[jordant70096652]

Done,

Dropbox - Adobe

[Todd Shaner]

Thank you. I see numerous settings applied by the Develop preset, but the one that appears to be causing the difference you are seeing with 5D MKIV image files is a camera profile. Camera profiles are "camera specific" and they can't be applied to files from a different camera model. The 5dmarkiii.dng file has an Illford Delta 3200C camera profile applied and the 5dmarkiv.dng has the "default" Adobe Standard camera profile applied. The Illford Delta 3200C camera profile has very high contrast compared to the Adobe Standard camera profile–ERGO the primary cause of the difference you are seeing.

In addition a Tone Curve is being applied with Blacks level raised, which prevents the image from attaining black level 0. Just be aware that a TC setting like this "restricts" the Basic panel's Tone settings from using the full dynamic range of the image file. A better method would be to leave the Black and White end points at 0 and 100 and use the Basic panel Tone Blacks and Whites sliders to achieve the same effect. As an FYI both files are underexposed by ~2.0 EV (2 F Stops), which makes the results less consistent when applying this type of Develop preset.

[jordant70096652]

You're absolutely right!

Why is it that in camera calibration and profiles on the mark iv images, Only standard profiles are available? How do I add extra profiles to the dropdown selection?

Love your work!

Appreciate all of your help on this.

[Jao vdL]

You must have added the "Milford Delta" profile yourself at some point as that is definately not a standard profile included by Adobe. Adobe only supplies the Adobe Standard and the Camera matching profiles. It probably came as part of some film emulation package that you must have bought or downloaded somewhere.

You can generate profiles yourself using DNG profile editor, a program you can download from Adobe Labs. There is a short instruction pdf with it that shows how it works. Not something many people will want to do though. You can also generate profiles using ColorChecker's Passport application if you have a color checker from them.

[Todd Shaner]

jordant70096652 wrote:

Why is it that in camera calibration and profiles on the mark iv images, Only standard profiles are available? How do I add extra profiles to the dropdown selection?

It appears you have installed some LR film emulation presets (Mastin Labs Ilford B&W Film Pack?). They probably include a "set" of presets for many different models of Canon cameras, but not the 5D MKIV since it was just released. I would ask them when they expect to have an update to the film pack that includes the 5D MKIV.

A better solution is as Jao vdL suggests and create your own Develop preset. I don't think you need to create a custom camera profile to achieve this film effect. The 5dMKIV includes a Camera Monochrome camera profile, which is a good starting point. Add the 'Strong Contrast' Tone Curve and adjust the Basic panel Tone controls to achieve the look you want. I would only include Tone Curve and Calibration (i.e. camera profile) in the Develop preset since the Basic panel's Tone settings will vary from image to image and should be adjusted manually or using the 'Auto' Tone button.Give it a try.

[jordant70096652]

Thanks for your help,

How do you install canon camera calibration profiles? Or do they come with the presets when you purchase them?

Again, Thank you for your help.. You have gone above and beyond!

[ssprengel]

The profiles would come with the presets most likely.  Do you not know where the presets/profiles are from?

[jordant70096652]

Ah, I see.. No idea, I was using the previous version of lightroom for some time, So I believe they could have come from anywhere.

Could you recommend any? Do you think VSCO presets would be mark iv friendly?

Thanks 

[Todd Shaner]

jordant70096652 wrote:

Thanks for your help,

How do you install canon camera calibration profiles? Or do they come with the presets when you purchase them?

Again, Thank you for your help.. You have gone above and beyond!

Glad to help. Most of these LR/ACR Develop Presets come with an installer that automatically places the camera profiles and Develop presets into the appropriate folders. Concerning VSCO presets it doesn't appear the Canon 5D MKIV is supported yet: VSCO Film 02 | VSCO Film | VSCO I suspect that will be the case for most all of these preset packs that come with camera profiles. I suggest emailing these preset developers and asking when the 5d MKIV will be supported.

A "custom" camera profile isn't necessary to create a film emulation, especially B&W. You can create your own using the Adobe supplied camera profiles, Tone Curve, B&W Mix, Split Toning, Effects panel, etc. and then save as a Develop preset. Here are a few tutorials:

Lightroom CC - Converting Photographs to Black and White - YouTube

Lightroom CC - Adding Color Toning to Black and White Images - YouTube

Lightroom CC - Adding Vignette and Grain Effects - YouTube

Lightroom CC - Creating and Saving Presets in the Develop Module - YouTube

[TheDigitalDog]

DNG camera profiles and presets are two separate entities. If you want to build your own DNG camera profiles, simple. All you need is a MacBeth Color Checker or an X-rite Passport target which also contains that 24 patch target and use either the free DNG Profile Editor from Adobe or the free Passport software from X-rite. You only need a handful, based on the illuminant (Daylight, Fluorescent, Tungsten etc), no need to build one for each setup.

More info on all this:

Everything you thought you wanted to know about DNG camera profiles:

All about In this 30 minute video, we’ll look into the creation and use of DNG camera profiles in three raw converters. The video covers:

What are DNG camera profiles, how do they differ from ICC camera profiles.

Misconceptions about DNG camera profiles.

Just when, and why do you need to build custom DNG camera profiles?

How to build custom DNG camera profiles using the X-rite Passport software.

The role of various illuminants on camera sensors and DNG camera profiles.

Dual Illuminant DNG camera profiles.

Examples of usage of DNG camera profiles in Lightroom, ACR, and Iridient Developer.

Low Rez (YouTube):

http://youtu.be/_fikTm8XIt4

High Rez (download):

http://www.digitaldog.net/files/DNG%20Camera%20profile%20video.mov

[Todd Shaner]

thedigitaldog wrote:

DNG camera profiles and presets are two separate entities.

Many presets apply a combination of Develop settings AND a custom camera profile with modified Tone Curve and/or color settings. VSCO is one example: VSCO Film: My camera profile is not listed. Can I still use VSCO Film? – VSCO Technical Support The Ilford B&W film emulation preset jordant70096652 is using also applies a custom camera profile along with other Develop panel settings.

In most cases the same results can be achieved with a Develop preset that doesn't use a custom camera profile. It's just requires using a larger number of Develop controls and settings in the preset and/or applied manually.

[TheDigitalDog]

trshaner wrote:

thedigitaldog wrote:

DNG camera profiles and presets are two separate entities.

Many presets apply a combination of Develop settings AND a custom camera profile with modified Tone Curve and/or color settings.     

Doesn't change the facts the two are absolutely separate entities! A preset can call a profile yes. So what? 

[Todd Shaner]

thedigitaldog wrote:

Doesn't change the facts the two are absolutely separate entities! A preset can call a profile yes. So what?

The procedure you describe is for making camera profiles using a ColorChecker Passport. Is there a way to create the custom camera profile used by a preset if the developer didn't include one for the 5D MKIV?. For example these presets: https://mastinlabs.com/products/mastin-labs-ilford-bw-pack/

[TheDigitalDog]

trshaner wrote:

thedigitaldog wrote:

Doesn't change the facts the two are absolutely separate entities! A preset can call a profile yes. So what?

The procedure you describe is for making camera profiles using a ColorChecker Passport. Is there a way to create the custom camera profile used by a preset if the developer didn't include one for the 5D MKIV?. For example these presets: https://mastinlabs.com/products/mastin-labs-ilford-bw-pack/

No and you would not want one. All that's required to build a good DNG camera profile is decent (not over blown out) exposure. The other setting are totally moot.

[Jao vdL]

You can actually using dng profile editor. Basically you load a dng from the mk IV into it. Then you can load the profile meant for the mk III and resave it as a profile for the mk IV. Make sure to rename it the right way so it will have the correct name in Lightroom and to put it in the right spot on your hard disk. No guarantee that it will look any good or the same as for the mk III as the sensors are different.

[Todd Shaner]

Thank you Jao. I just tried it with jordant70096652 5D MKIII and 5D MKIV DNG files and with the recreated profile and Develop setings applied to the 5D MKIV it looks very similar to the 5D MKIII B&W toning. You can download the profile at the below Dropbox link. The profile's name has been changed to 'Ilford Delta 3200 C' same as the 5D MK III so it should work with 5D MK IV image files using the same Develop preset.

Dropbox - Canon EOS 5D Mark III_Ilford Delta 3200 C.dcp

It needs to be installed here:

Windows—C: \ Users \ [your username] \ AppData \ Roaming \ Adobe \ CameraRaw \ CameraProfiles \

Mac—Macintosh HD / Users / [your username] / Library / Application Support / Adobe / CameraRaw / CameraProfiles /

You'll need to restart LR for the new profile to appear.

Apply the Ilford Delta 3200 C Develop preset and then check that the below camera profile is being applied to the 5D MKIV image file.

[Jao vdL]

Cool! Glad that that actually worked. Hopefully this will help the original poster. I agree that it is best to develop these yourself but jordant appears to have a workflow that works well for them.

[jordant70096652]

It has just worked for me over the years and I hate change! Although I changed to the mark iv, I expected the functionality to be somewhat the same..

Amazing, Thanks for you help.. Its much appreciated

[PAWU]

Changing to a new camera and having no change is a little frustrating, isn't it?

[jordant70096652]

Thank you, I did that.. Used the mark iii profile on the dng profile editor.. Looks similar

Thank you all for your help, Hopefully updates will be available soon for the mark iv and presets,

Cant thank you all enough, What a great help you have been!

Absolute legend.

[Abambo]

Canon is right. The sensor is hell much more different to what has been used in the M3. Technologically the differences between M3, M2 and the original M1 were peanuts against what they introduced with the newer cameras.

(Edit: This does contradict one of my earlier posts, where I said that it would be an easy go. That was referenced to a web article, describing the information that can be found in the new raw file format. The sensor itself is however quite complex.)

[jeffb6796353]

Ive had similar problems. I can't get my raw images to look anywhere close to the way I like. I use a preset to start with and it looks terrible. I can understand why that would be if the IV's color profile is different but I can't get it looking right even using the white balance and color sliders...Ugh its so frustrating! lots of ugly orange/green tints...

[jordant70096652]

Exactly my problem! Im glad its not only me.. I got in touch with Canon and they said its because its a different sensor, But maybe further down the track adobe will release a new update for lightroom. I used to be able to get bluey green or reddy yellow pictures back to a natural tone on lightroom, Now.. no chance! eeeergh

[Todd Shaner]

jordant70096652 wrote:

I think my real concern is that when I have say a very blue image from shooting live music.. I used to be able to manipulate the image and get it back to a natural looking tone with the mark iv, Where as now using the mark iv.. It seems as though I have less control over the colours and like I said, Seems flat.

There is a known issue with the current Adobe camera profiles with lighting that is near the ultraviolet spectrum. It may very well be the pictures shot with the 5D MKIII had different lighting than those shot with the 5D MKIV. Were they different events? I suggest posting one of the 5D MKIV raw files with this issue to Dropbox or other file sharing site and post the link in a reply here. Also please provide a detailed description of what you are unable to accomplish with the image.