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KRSTF
Known Participant
August 5, 2019
Question

Normalising image within Lightroom.

  • August 5, 2019
  • 5 replies
  • 4211 views

Hello to everyone!

This is something which has been bugging me for quite some time (like years) and I would really want to know the correct way to do this... how would one normalise picture within Lightroom without any external tools (like without color checker, without neutral card or point, etc..).

What is the industry correct way?

By ”normalising” I mean getting WB right, getting skintones, tones, contrast, whites and darks right.

Getting it as close as possible to “what I saw” and thus creating a base for my following edit (creative color correction).

Or do I think too much as a colorist?

I know how to do these things in Photoshop or Davinci. But in LR it feels like guessing and going by what feels right Or what you like... 

Hey! Thanks in advance for anything!

Either answer or pointing me in the right dirrection.

Thanks!

All the best!

Kryštof

This topic has been closed for replies.

5 replies

Community Expert
August 6, 2019

It sounds too me like your simply asking how to get a basic neutral rendering of your image.  If you can't use a grey card or color checker, first choose a neutral profile for your raw - something like camera standard or neutral or if you don't have that for your camera, Adobe standard. Then if the auto white balance in your camera didn't get it right when you shot, jigger your white balance until it looks right and dial in any necessary exposure compensation. Don't touch any other sliders yet. It helps if there are neutral areas on your image that you can use the WB eye-dropper on but otherwise the process is visual. It helps to use a reference image on screen for what you consider normal skin tone if you have people in the image. After that you have a neutral looking starting point for further editing. After that comes your creativity. You can select other profiles for a quick look change or play with the other sliders.

KRSTF
KRSTFAuthor
Known Participant
August 7, 2019

Hello Jao!

What you are describing is exactly how I approach it at the moment.

But that doesn't sound like the proper way and you will always end up with a colour cast, incorrect saturation and might also end-up in situation, where there is just no reference for eye-dropper.

So at the end I alway take it to PS, but that is time and storage consuming.

But I believe you do understand my issue precisely!

All the best.

Thank you so much for your energy

Krystof

Community Expert
August 7, 2019

KRSTF  wrote

Hello Jao!

What you are describing is exactly how I approach it at the moment.

But that doesn't sound like the proper way and you will always end up with a colour cast, incorrect saturation and might also end-up in situation, where there is just no reference for eye-dropper.

So at the end I alway take it to PS, but that is time and storage consuming.

But I believe you do understand my issue precisely!

All the best.

Thank you so much for your energy

Krystof

Krystof,

if you choose a neutral profile and don't touch the saturation sliders, you will get consistent saturation as long as your white balance is good. In Lightroom this is most accurately done by eye if you don't have a white reference and your camera tends to misjudge white balance. It is helpful to use some reference images on your screen to do this. The CMYK trick that people used to do in Photoshop doesn't work as there is no CMYK readout in Lightroom. That method is fraught with major issues anyway (it doesn't work for anything but caucasian skin). I know digitaldog is an expert in this field and is not a fan to say it mildly. Personally I have not really been in a situation in which doing this by eye is a problem. I see problems when I shoot with two different cameras that judge white balance differently and in that case I often just select all images from one camera that is off a bit and warm or cool all images and that takes care of most of it. I then refine individual images if necessary.

the best way to approach what you want is to calibrate your camera using a color checker chart and generate a new standard profile based on the camera. Typically you would do this under two lighting conditions - tungsten and daylight - and combine them in a single camera profile that you call in Lightroom. I use a color checker passport and use its built-in software to generate profiles that work well in Lightroom. The difference with the standard profiles is very minor though in my experience and I only do it when accurate color rendition is essential. That rarely happens in landscape photography which is more my bailiwick. Then if you have profiles such as that, you want to always shoot a grey card in the conditions that you are shooting and sync the white balance over your images in Lightroom from the same shoot location and light condition. This will get you consistent color at least as a starting point.

Conrad_C
Community Expert
Community Expert
August 5, 2019

KRSTF  wrote

I know how to do these things in Photoshop or Davinci. But in LR it feels like guessing and going by what feels right Or what you like... 

What would be your steps in Photoshop or DaVinci? Similar tools should be available in Lightroom.

If you are thinking like a colorist, does that mean you are thinking in terms of color grading? Because that's a separate step that comes after color correction.

But Photoshop, Lightroom, and DaVinci Resolve all have tools for both color correction and color grading. That's why it would be interesting to hear about your color workflow in the other two applications.

KRSTF
KRSTFAuthor
Known Participant
August 7, 2019

Hello Conrad!

Since you have the space between "d" and "C", I don't know how to mention you...

btw guys, all of you, I am new to this forum, so please let me know if I am breaking the etiquette or something.

I think you understood me very well! I am speaking in terms of "colour correction", I want to get the base right, then move onto the next step.

And to answer your question:

For example Photoshop workflow for skin tones:

1) duplicate layer

2) apply blur (just a to even skin tones out and to get better read out)

3) hover over midtones part of skin tones (like in not highlights or not blacks)

4) get read out of CMYK values in the "info" tab

5) the CMYK read out must be as follows:

C = something (doesn't matter)

M = C x 2

Y = M x 1.25

6) if they are not, you get Curves adjustment layer and you tweak each RGB curve independently to tweak the CMYK read out to match the formula above.

7) you are done when they do.

Another example for Davinci would be really long to explaine, but if you follow this video from  8:44 to 23:13

DaVinci Resolve 15 - The Art of Color Grading - YouTube

That is about some 15 minutes, so I understand if you don't really want to watch it

Basically it is based on having more than just histogram... mainly waveform scope and vectorscope.

Then the ability to get exact readout through eyedrop

And then just knowing correct values and the context.

I hope that helped?

Thanks so much for taking your time with this!

All the best

Krystof

Conrad_C
Community Expert
Community Expert
August 7, 2019

The workflow in Lightroom Classic (and Adobe Camera Raw) is similar to Photoshop. Like many photo editing applications, Lightroom doesn't have a waveform/vectorscope.

In Lightroom, you can get color value readouts of the pixels under the pointer by looking under the histogram when in the Develop module. However, these are RGB values, so you must know the typical RGB values for subjects such as skin tones.

You can then approach your overall and local corrections using any set of color tools in Lightroom, such as:

  • Tone curve
  • Individual RGB tone curves
  • HSL sliders to target specific color ranges and adjust their hue, saturation, luminance
  • Graduated Filter, Radial Filter, and Adjustment Brush to apply a local color correction
  • Range Mask to limit corrections to a range of tones or colors within a local adjustment

For example, you could correct skin tones in Lightroom by doing the following:

  1. Check RGB values under the histogram
  2. Adjust RGB curves until they are correct

If you wanted to apply corrections only to the skin tones and not the rest of the image, you could apply a Radial Filter or Adjustment Brush to the areas with skin, then apply Range Mask to isolate and automatically mask the skin tones, then make your color corrections using the local adjustment options. This is similar to the secondary color correction feature in video editing applications. Unfortunately, RGB curves apply only to an entire image and are not available as a local adjustment, so you'd have to use the Temperature, Tint, and Color options to make color changes to a local adjustment.

If your display is calibrated or at least profiled, and you have a profile for your final output conditions, you can use the soft-proofing feature to simulate how the final colors will look. Unfortunately, only RGB profiles can be used at this time, so you can’t soft-proof CMYK output. If you need to work in CMYK most of the time, you’ll need to edit images using Photoshop.

JP Hess
Inspiring
August 5, 2019

And that's why you have to create a good starting point, but there always has to be additional work to create "perfection". That's why Lightroom Classic provides all the tools.

TheDigitalDog
Inspiring
August 5, 2019

KRSTF  wrote

By ”normalising” I mean getting WB right, getting skintones, tones, contrast, whites and darks right.

Getting it as close as possible to “what I saw” and thus creating a base for my following edit (creative color correction).

The short answer is, you really can't. Read this first to see why (and what you really would need is to start with scene referred color; difficult to produce in LR/ACR but not 'impossible):

http://www.color.org/ICC_white_paper_20_Digital_photography_color_management_basics.pdf

White Balance isn't an attribute of the raw data. You render WB as you render the raw. IOW, the settings you see for the camera for WB first define a range of possible colors and, they have absolutely no effect on the raw.

The contrast ratio of a scene, one you can see, can greatly exceed the DR of the capture. The next piece to read is this:

http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/pscs3_rendering_image.pdf

Lastly, it's kind of important to consider what raw data really is and 'looks like'; here's one example:

raw.jpg

No, it doesn’t look anything like what you saw.

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"
KRSTF
KRSTFAuthor
Known Participant
August 7, 2019

Hello thedigitaldog​,

I must admit I got little lost in your reply!

So basically what you are saying is that I need a colour checker?

I have a colour checker for portraiture, products and stuff... I am looking for a solution for my documentary photography, where I can't use those.

However I haven't read your links just yet, so maybe it will all come together when I will. But at the moment I am little lost. However thanks for those links as it is not easy to find solid study materials.

Btw would it be possible to determine the contrast, saturation, colour and etc. deviations for a specific camera model and it's raw interpretation in specific software (LR) and save it for later use? It doesn't solve my issue, but it would get me a step closer I think. But it still leave out the most important part thou... skin tone, colours,  etc...  :(

Thanks for your time! Cheers!

Krystof

JP Hess
Inspiring
August 5, 2019

If I'm understanding your dilemma, this is what I would suggest. Regarding raw images, Lightroom is programmed with a set of default settings that it will apply for each camera that it supports. Those default settings may not be exactly right for your camera or for your style of shooting. My suggestion for you would be to take a photograph that is "typical" all what you normally photograph, or that represents what you would want Lightroom to recognize as an image containing everything that you would want adjusted properly. Import that image into Lightroom and adjust it to exactly the way you want that photograph to look. I'm referring to every possible adjustment including profile, color balance, white balance, detail adjustments, anything that you feel you would want to be part of that image. When you have that image looking exactly the way you would want it to look when it is first imported, save new camera defaults. These settings will now be applied whenever you important new raw images, or whenever you click the reset button on images that have been previously imported.

If your work always involves people and skin tones those skin tones can be part of your default settings. Or you can create additional presets for different skin tone settings as the need arises.

KRSTF
KRSTFAuthor
Known Participant
August 7, 2019

Hello JimHess,

First of all thank you for your time and for your input. Unfortunately this is not addressing my dilemma... but english is not my first language and I just might have not explained my self that well.

I am not looking for automatisation of "the process".

What I want to know is how "the process" should be addressed / dealt with.

I will drop couple examples/scenarios:

1) when you work with film, you first colour correct the footage (normalize the image), then you colour grade the footage (adjust it to your liking or accordingly to the context).  I am want to know how to do the image colour correction as it seams that every photographer immediately skips to colour grading the picture

2) another example: I know how to read histogram and the scene. I know how to adjust blacks, whites and I know where +- skin should reside. So I believe I can get very precise exposure. I want to know how to do this for colours and skin tone (=skin colour)

3) yet another example. I know how to in Photoshop get a read out on RGB values under cursor. Based on those values you can calculate if your image has correct skin colour and tweak the values accordingly. I don't know how to do that in Lightroom.

Basically my issue is that I don't know how to colour correct an image in LR. Everything I do (and most of the people I believe do) is just guessing or editing to their liking (which should be the next step)

I just want to get more technical and understand things and have consistency. Not within one shoot, but within my whole portfolio.

I hope I explained myself better.

Thank you

All the best

Krystof

TheDigitalDog
Inspiring
August 7, 2019

Hello thedigitaldog

You must tell me how do you mention whole block of text?

Btw there is no app for this forum is there? I have really huge problem with the amount of notifications I am getting into my email.

Anyway thanks again for your response.

I really appreciate it but I don't think we are on the same page. Or maybe I just don't understand...

When I said film I don't speak about film as in analog picture but film as in motion picture. That I think was the first misunderstanding.

I do undestand that different stocks have different looks, but as you wrote those are looks and I would apply those after I have solid base. As you would do when colour correcting and colour grading a movie clip.

I understand that different softwares (Lighroom, Capture One or whatever)  will interpret my raw files differently. And I am okey with that, that is not the issue. I am not trying to fight the windmills. I even think that the solution I am looking for doesn't really need to be raw file exclusive. It should work with JPEG to some extend as well I guess... 

But thats why is it called colour correction

You correct camera specific attributes.

You correct when the camera reads the scene wrong.

You correct that the interpretation of your raw file in your software of your choice.

I am not looking for some holy grail that doesn't exist.

I believe I am asking quite basic question, that plenty of us maybe overlook, or is not standard in photography while it is in video making.

Questions like:

How to get the white balance just spot on without reference?

How to know ho much saturation should you add or remove to have faithful image?

How to get my skin tones perfect and without any tint of that or that. Because there is an equation for that in Photoshop.

And then there is the whole thing with exposition, but since I can read and work with histogram, I know how to approach this I guess. Still I would be happy to hear your take on it.

I hope this clears thing out.

Thanks again

All the best.


KRSTF  wrote

Questions like:

How to get the white balance just spot on without reference?

How to know ho much saturation should you add or remove to have faithful image?

How to get my skin tones perfect and without any tint of that or that. Because there is an equation for that in Photoshop.

You work on a calibrated and profiled display and you subjectively alter the tools (sliders, WB tool etc) to produce a rendering you visually and subjectively desire. There is NO faithful. There is a desired rendering. For print or display:

http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/pscs3_rendering_image.pdf

Author “Color Management for Photographers" & "Photoshop CC Color Management/pluralsight"