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Opening Denoise

Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Adobe recomends to Denoise early in the process. One method is to press the Reset which clears everything, however sharpening defaults to 40. This does carry over to Denoise. No one is really sure if Denoise is supposed to ignore it but you can see it. I've set it to 150 just to test it and it does show after processing and back in LrC. Denoise has to work harder. Is this a bug or is there another process we should be aware of like zeroing out sharpening as well? The examples show one file with sharpening set to 0 and the other 40.                                 

 

I'm on a Mac - Ventura 13.3.1  

 

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Community Expert , Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

@johnrellis  Nothing. It's probably an oversight. They did set any manual noise reduction settings to zero, and forgot/did not realise that sharpening also has an effect that is not the same. That is why I suggest to create a 'zero all' preset and use that. 'Reset' does not zero out everything, but sets it to the camera defaults.

 

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Community Expert ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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40 is the default sharpening amount in Lightroom Classic. It's at that to ensure reasonable sharpeness from anti aliasing blur which is part of the demosacing process. 

Sean McCormack. Author of 'Essential Development 3'. Magazine Writer. Former Official Fuji X-Photographer.

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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I'm aware of capture sharpening. Can this not be applied post Denoise or does it have to be part of it during the Denoise process? Do lens abberartions effect the results of Denoise? It just seems that Denoise has to work harder.  

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Sorry. I missed the part about the demosacing process. Thanks       

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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I use ISO Adaptive presets when importing because not all files will go through Denoise. I noticed that Reset does not uncheck lens corrections and CA. I suppose getting rid of CA would a good thing for the demosacing process? I don't suppose lens correcetions will have a big impact either?                      

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Community Expert ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about what denoise does. Denoise uses the unedited raw data and ignores all settings, so the denoised result should not be any different no matter what you set. What can be different however, is how a certain setting looks on the original raw file and on the denoised DNG file. That is why you may see differences, and that is why Adobe suggests to use Denoise first and then edit the denoised image, rather than edit the raw image and then let these settings carry over to the denoised DNG..

 

Reset does not zero out everything, but applies the camera defaults. If you really want to zero out everything then create a preset that does so. Remember that it does not matter if you apply this preset to the raw file before you use Denoise, or if you apply it on the denoised DNG afterwards.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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So if Denoise ignores unedired raw data then it doesn't really matter. I just sent a file sharpened at 150 to Denoise and it came back at 150. Obvioulsy oversharpened but NR was pretty good. I just reduced the sharpening to a normal level and it looked fine. I have a preset to zero everything. I may as well use Reset to zero out all the other settings that are applied at import with the ISO dependant preset. There are options. I could always import with no preset and apply ISO dependant as needed. I 'll think about it.

 

Seeing the difference between two sharpening levels in the Denoise window threw me off. I''ll have to re-read Eric Chans Denoise Dymystified blog again. I was thinking there is no information about that out there but he may have mentioned it.

 

Thanks.                                                   

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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This was in his blog. Now carried over makes more sense. Your explantion helped. I had never used Enhance until last week when Denoise was released. Thanks again.                    

 

After multiplying and adding up a gazillion numbers, your computer will produce a new raw file in the Digital Negative (DNG) format that contains your denoised photo. As with previous Enhance features, any adjustments you made to the source photo will automatically be carried over to the enhanced DNG.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Technically it's not a raw file (it's a linear RGB file), but I forgive John for not wanting to confuse people even more than they currently are... 🙂

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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I knew it was a linear RGB. It is why the files are so big which does not bother me because the IQ is amazing for the first release. Like othre 3rd party NR apps I only sent select files to them. You can always delete after export. Adobe is working on that too.      

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Community Expert ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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The denoised Enhanced DNG, like the 'Raw Details' and Super 'Enhanced' verssions, also includes a copy of the original raw file <i.e. mosaic data>), albeit not currently visible or accessible to the user. 

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Thanks for the info. I was going through the posts and found this. "Denoise window through me off". Word should be "threw". I can't edit it.    

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Community Expert ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Below is from Eric's Blog post and provides a clue as to why the original raw file is included in the denoised DNG.

 

What’s next?

"Denoise is our third Enhance feature. We’re proud of what it can do today, but we’re already looking ahead to make it even better. For instance, we have some ideas on how to use additional training data to improve resolution. We’d like to support additional file formats and combine Denoise with Super Resolution. We’re even looking into ways to speed up the workflow by not needing to make a new DNG file. It’s a very exciting time, and you can expect us to continue making big strides forward in AI-powered."

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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It's fantastc. 

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Community Expert ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Your typo is fixed. Where do I send the invoice?  😉

 

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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Thanks. Send it to my wife.   

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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I guess I'm not done yet. Sorry. So is this still a bug? The algorithms may not be applying sharpening during the process but different levels look different in the Enhance window. How are we supposed to judge how much NR to apply? For now I think I will zero everything out so I can see the state of the unsharpemed file.       

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Participant ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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That example is from a ISO 16,000 file.  

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LEGEND ,
Apr 26, 2023 Apr 26, 2023

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[This post contains formatting and embedded images that don't appear in email. View the post in your Web browser.]

 

What's the justification for copying Sharpening settings from the original raw to the denoised DNG?

 

The default sharpening amounts chosen by manufacturers, Adobe, and users were chosen based on original raw files. But Raw Details changes the image considerably -- it "produces crisp detail, improved color rendering, more accurate renditions of edges, and fewer artif...

 

It's not at all obvious why a setting based on a raw file would be appropriate for the output of Raw Details.

 

Here's an ISO 14,000 Nikon Z 9 image with:

 

left: camera default sharpening of 32 applied to the original raw

center: sharpening of 0 applied to the Denoise DNG

right: sharpening of 32 applied to the Denoise DNG

 

johnrellis_6-1682565007592.pngjohnrellis_5-1682564994184.png

johnrellis_7-1682565039905.png

 

My preference is for denoise sharpening of 0, producing a pleasing balance of detail and noise reduction.  Preferences vary, of course, but my question remains: What justifies copying the sharpening setting from the raw to the output of Raw Details/Denoise?

 

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Community Expert ,
Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

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@johnrellis  Nothing. It's probably an oversight. They did set any manual noise reduction settings to zero, and forgot/did not realise that sharpening also has an effect that is not the same. That is why I suggest to create a 'zero all' preset and use that. 'Reset' does not zero out everything, but sets it to the camera defaults.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Community Expert ,
Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

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@JohanElzenga 

It's probably an oversight.

 

You're being too generous / polite I would call it a bug 😉 

 

There was a 'Zero All' preset, which was for many years installed by default, but I can't find it in most recent builds. Then again, I may well have deleted it during a recent preset cleanup.

 

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

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It's not a bug. Lightroom behaves as designed. The problem is that this part of the design is wrong.

 

-- Johan W. Elzenga

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Community Expert ,
Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

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quote

There was a 'Zero All' preset, which was for many years installed by default, but I can't find it in most recent builds. Then again, I may well have deleted it during a recent preset cleanup.

 

By @Ian Lyons

 

It's still available, Ian. You should have it in the Classic - General presets group (hidden by default?).

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Participant ,
Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

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Yes it is there.

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Community Expert ,
Apr 27, 2023 Apr 27, 2023

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Lots of great advice and information in this thread.

Regards, Denis: iMac 27” mid-2015, macOS 11.7.10 Big Sur; 2TB SSD, 24 GB Ram, GPU 2 GB; LrC 12.5, Lr 6.5, PS 24.7,; ACR 15.5,; Camera OM-D E-M1

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