P: Crashing randomly (even at startup)

[photopoeth]

Hi there, I've go a huge problem with LrC version 13.x.x.  The first version I've tested was 13.0.1 and it was a catastrophe. So I switched back to 12.5. with all the hassle that comes with going back to an older catalog version. I've skipped 13.0.2 and now I thought I'll give 13.1.0 a try. At first it seemed to be okay, but it  got worse. 

The crashes happen randomly. There's no pattern to it. Sometimes it's happening while working with LrC (I had the suspicion that Point Color might be the cause - but it's not), sometimes it's happening while the program just sits in the background and I'm doing something else and sometimes (I might better say often) it crashes during startup. It's not uncommon that I need 3-5 tries to get it started.

My latest (and also current experience):
Since it was running relatively stable the last few days (maybe only 1 crash per day), I upgraded the Excire Search plugin yesterday. After that Excire has to reinitialize all images. I initiated this and did not use LrC. This morning it was still running and of the approx. 130,000 images about 80,000 were initialized. Hooray! (I thought)...

Then this morning I made a huge mistake! I was looking for an image in my catalog for export. LrC crashed and since then I can't get it to work.

It is estimated that 75% of my starts today lead directly to a crash. When it does start, it crashes after about 1 minute (whether proceed to do something with the program or not).

I have since been able to turn off GPU support as a test because I had read in another similar post that there can be problems with graphics cards (or drivers) that are too old. But that didn't help either.

PLEASE ADOBE - I don't want to switch back to 12.5 already (especially since I might lose some changes to my images or they weren't even imported in my backup catalog yet.

What can I do? I have work to do and my customers are waiting.

BR
Thomas

Here's my system information:

Lightroom Classic-Version: 13.1 [ 202312111226-41a494e8 ]

Lizenz: Creative Cloud

Spracheinstellung: de

Betriebssystem: Windows 11 - Business Edition

Version: 11.0.22621

Anwendungsarchitektur: x64

Systemarchitektur: x64

Anzahl logischer Prozessoren: 16

Prozessorgeschwindigkeit: 3,6GHz

SQLite-Version: 3.36.0

CPU-Auslastung: 6,0%

Integrierter Speicher: 65461,5 MB

Dedizierter GPU-Speicher, der von Lightroom verwendet wird: 17,7MB / 6044,0MB (0%)

Für Lightroom verfügbarer phys. Speicher: 65461,5 MB

Von Lightroom verwendeter phys. Speicher: 6110,1 MB (9,3%)

Von Lightroom verwendeter virtueller Speicher: 6759,5 MB

Anzahl GDI-Objekte: 914

Anzahl BENUTZER-Objekte: 2603

Anzahl Prozess-Handles: 9319

Cache-Speichergröße: 9491,5MB

Interne Camera Raw-Version: 16.1 [ 1728 ]

Maximale Anzahl Threads, die Camera Raw verwendet: 5

Camera Raw SIMD-Optimierung: SSE2,AVX,AVX2

Virtueller Speicher in Camera Raw: 1793MB / 32730MB (5%)

Physischer Speicher in Camera Raw: 1529MB / 65461MB (2%)

DPI-Einstellung des Systems: 96 DPI

Desktop-Komposition aktiviert: Ja

Standardvorschaugröße: 2560 Pixel

Monitore/Anzeigegeräte: 1) 2560x1440, 2) 1280x1024

Eingabetypen: Multitouch: Nein, integrierte Toucheingabe: Nein, integrierter Stift: Ja, externe Toucheingabe: Nein, externer Stift: Ja, Tastatur: Nein

Informationen zum Grafikprozessor: 

DirectX: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB (31.0.15.3640)

Anfangsstatus: GPU wird standardmäßig für die Bildverarbeitung unterstützt

Benutzerpräferenz: Aus

Anwendungsordner: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Lightroom Classic

Bibliothekspfad: I:\LR-Katalog\ThP.lrcat

Einstellungen-Ordner: C:\Users\Thomas\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom

Installierte Zusatzmodule: 

1) AdobeStock

2) Any Filter

3) ColorChecker Camera Calibration

4) DxO PureRAW 2

5) DxO PureRAW 2 Importer

6) DxO PureRAW 3

7) DxO PureRAW 3 Importer

8) Excire Search

9) Fix Presets

10) Flickr

11) Fotograf.de Upload

12) Helicon Focus Export

13) jf Bag-o-Goodies

14) jf Collection Publisher

15) jf Data Explorer

16) jf Extended Search

17) jf Folder Watch

18) jf Metadata Wrangler

19) jf People Support

20) jf Preview Extraction

21) jf Smart-Collection Sync

22) jf System Info

23) JPEGmini

24) LensTagger Exif Tool

25) LR/Mogrify 2

26) LrSuperKeys

27) Snapshot Prefs

28) Topaz Photo AI

29) TP Extra Metadata

Config.lua-Flags: 

loggers.LrWF*.logLevel = debug

loggers.LrWF*.action = logfile

loggers.AgWF*.logLevel = debug

loggers.AgWF*.action = logfile

loggers.LrCatalog*.logLevel = debug

loggers.LrCatalog*.action = logfile

loggers.WFSyncAgent.logLevel = warn

loggers.WFSyncAgent.action = logfile

loggers.WF*.logLevel = debug

loggers.WF*.action = logfile

loggers.WFDocStore.logLevel = error

loggers.WFDocStore.action = logfile

loggers.WFRequestDispatcher.logLevel = warn

loggers.WFRequestDispatcher.action = logfile

loggers.WFRxHttpClient.logLevel = error

loggers.WFRxHttpClient.action = logfile

loggers.WFOzSyncPeer.logLevel = error

loggers.WFOzSyncPeer.action = logfile

loggers.WFOAuth2Session.logLevel = error

loggers.WFOAuth2Session.action = logfile

Adapter Nr. 1: Anbieter : 10de

Gerät : 1b83

Subsystem : 328d1462

Version : a1

Grafikspeicher : 6044

Adapter Nr. 2: Anbieter : 1414

Gerät : 8c

Subsystem : 0

Version : 0

Grafikspeicher : 0

AudioDeviceIOBlockSize: 1024

AudioDeviceName: $$$/dvaaudiodevice/SystemDefaultAndEffectiveDeviceName=System Default - Line (3- AG06/AG03)#{comment}DVAAU-4201250: Open the audio hardware preferences page.

AudioDeviceNumberOfChannels: 2

AudioDeviceSampleRate: 44100

Build: LR5x120

Direct2DEnabled: false

GL_ACCUM_ALPHA_BITS: 16

GL_ACCUM_BLUE_BITS: 16

GL_ACCUM_GREEN_BITS: 16

GL_ACCUM_RED_BITS: 16

GL_ALPHA_BITS: 0

GL_BLUE_BITS: 8

GL_DEPTH_BITS: 24

GL_GREEN_BITS: 8

GL_MAX_3D_TEXTURE_SIZE: 16384

GL_MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE: 32768

GL_MAX_TEXTURE_UNITS: 4

GL_MAX_VIEWPORT_DIMS: 32768,32768

GL_RED_BITS: 8

GL_RENDERER: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2

GL_SHADING_LANGUAGE_VERSION: 4.60 NVIDIA

GL_STENCIL_BITS: 8

GL_VENDOR: NVIDIA Corporation

GL_VERSION: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 536.40

GPUDeviceEnabled: false

OGLEnabled: true

GL_EXTENSIONS: GL_AMD_multi_draw_indirect GL_AMD_seamless_cubemap_per_texture GL_AMD_vertex_shader_viewport_index GL_AMD_vertex_shader_layer GL_ARB_arrays_of_arrays GL_ARB_base_instance GL_ARB_bindless_texture GL_ARB_blend_func_extended GL_ARB_buffer_storage GL_ARB_clear_buffer_object GL_ARB_clear_texture GL_ARB_clip_control GL_ARB_color_buffer_float GL_ARB_compatibility GL_ARB_compressed_texture_pixel_storage GL_ARB_conservative_depth GL_ARB_compute_shader GL_ARB_compute_variable_group_size GL_ARB_conditional_render_inverted GL_ARB_copy_buffer GL_ARB_copy_image GL_ARB_cull_distance GL_ARB_debug_output GL_ARB_depth_buffer_float GL_ARB_depth_clamp GL_ARB_depth_texture GL_ARB_derivative_control GL_ARB_direct_state_access GL_ARB_draw_buffers GL_ARB_draw_buffers_blend GL_ARB_draw_indirect GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex GL_ARB_draw_instanced GL_ARB_enhanced_layouts GL_ARB_ES2_compatibility GL_ARB_ES3_compatibility GL_ARB_ES3_1_compatibility GL_ARB_ES3_2_compatibility GL_ARB_explicit_attrib_location GL_ARB_explicit_uniform_location GL_ARB_fragment_coord_conventions GL_ARB_fragment_layer_viewport GL_ARB_fragment_program GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow GL_ARB_fragment_shader GL_ARB_fragment_shader_interlock GL_ARB_framebuffer_no_attachments GL_ARB_framebuffer_object GL_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB GL_ARB_geometry_shader4 GL_ARB_get_program_binary GL_ARB_get_texture_sub_image GL_ARB_gl_spirv GL_ARB_gpu_shader5 GL_ARB_gpu_shader_fp64 GL_ARB_gpu_shader_int64 GL_ARB_half_float_pixel GL_ARB_half_float_vertex GL_ARB_imaging GL_ARB_indirect_parameters GL_ARB_instanced_arrays GL_ARB_internalformat_query GL_ARB_internalformat_query2 GL_ARB_invalidate_subdata GL_ARB_map_buffer_alignment GL_ARB_map_buffer_range GL_ARB_multi_bind GL_ARB_multi_draw_indirect GL_ARB_multisample GL_ARB_multitexture GL_ARB_occlusion_query GL_ARB_occlusion_query2 GL_ARB_parallel_shader_compile GL_ARB_pipeline_statistics_query GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object GL_ARB_point_parameters GL_ARB_point_sprite GL_ARB_polygon_offset_clamp GL_ARB_post_depth_coverage GL_ARB_program_interface_query GL_ARB_provoking_vertex GL_ARB_query_buffer_object GL_ARB_robust_buffer_access_behavior GL_ARB_robustness GL_ARB_sample_locations GL_ARB_sample_shading GL_ARB_sampler_objects GL_ARB_seamless_cube_map GL_ARB_seamless_cubemap_per_texture GL_ARB_separate_shader_objects GL_ARB_shader_atomic_counter_ops GL_ARB_shader_atomic_counters GL_ARB_shader_ballot GL_ARB_shader_bit_encoding GL_ARB_shader_clock GL_ARB_shader_draw_parameters GL_ARB_shader_group_vote GL_ARB_shader_image_load_store GL_ARB_shader_image_size GL_ARB_shader_objects GL_ARB_shader_precision GL_ARB_shader_storage_buffer_object GL_ARB_shader_subroutine GL_ARB_shader_texture_image_samples GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod GL_ARB_shading_language_100 GL_ARB_shader_viewport_layer_array GL_ARB_shading_language_420pack GL_ARB_shading_language_include GL_ARB_shading_language_packing GL_ARB_shadow GL_ARB_sparse_buffer GL_ARB_sparse_texture GL_ARB_sparse_texture2 GL_ARB_sparse_texture_clamp GL_ARB_spirv_extensions GL_ARB_stencil_texturing GL_ARB_sync GL_ARB_tessellation_shader GL_ARB_texture_barrier GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp GL_ARB_texture_buffer_object GL_ARB_texture_buffer_object_rgb32 GL_ARB_texture_buffer_range GL_ARB_texture_compression GL_ARB_texture_compression_bptc GL_ARB_texture_compression_rgtc GL_ARB_texture_cube_map GL_ARB_texture_cube_map_array GL_ARB_texture_env_add GL_ARB_texture_env_combine GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 GL_ARB_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_ARB_texture_filter_minmax GL_ARB_texture_float GL_ARB_texture_gather GL_ARB_texture_mirror_clamp_to_edge GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_ARB_texture_multisample GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two GL_ARB_texture_query_levels GL_ARB_texture_query_lod GL_ARB_texture_rectangle GL_ARB_texture_rg GL_ARB_texture_rgb10_a2ui GL_ARB_texture_stencil8 GL_ARB_texture_storage GL_ARB_texture_storage_multisample GL_ARB_texture_swizzle GL_ARB_texture_view GL_ARB_timer_query GL_ARB_transform_feedback2 GL_ARB_transform_feedback3 GL_ARB_transform_feedback_instanced GL_ARB_transform_feedback_overflow_query GL_ARB_transpose_matrix GL_ARB_uniform_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_array_bgra GL_ARB_vertex_array_object GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_64bit GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_binding GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_program GL_ARB_vertex_shader GL_ARB_vertex_type_10f_11f_11f_rev GL_ARB_vertex_type_2_10_10_10_rev GL_ARB_viewport_array GL_ARB_window_pos GL_ATI_draw_buffers GL_ATI_texture_float GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once GL_S3_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_env_add GL_EXT_abgr GL_EXT_bgra GL_EXT_bindable_uniform GL_EXT_blend_color GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate GL_EXT_blend_func_separate GL_EXT_blend_minmax GL_EXT_blend_subtract GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array GL_EXT_Cg_shader GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test GL_EXT_direct_state_access GL_EXT_draw_buffers2 GL_EXT_draw_instanced GL_EXT_draw_range_elements GL_EXT_fog_coord GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample GL_EXTX_framebuffer_mixed_formats GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample_blit_scaled GL_EXT_framebuffer_object GL_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB GL_EXT_geometry_shader4 GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters GL_EXT_gpu_shader4 GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays GL_EXT_multiview_texture_multisample GL_EXT_multiview_timer_query GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil GL_EXT_packed_float GL_EXT_packed_pixels GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object GL_EXT_point_parameters GL_EXT_polygon_offset_clamp GL_EXT_post_depth_coverage GL_EXT_provoking_vertex GL_EXT_raster_multisample GL_EXT_rescale_normal GL_EXT_secondary_color GL_EXT_separate_shader_objects GL_EXT_separate_specular_color GL_EXT_shader_image_load_formatted GL_EXT_shader_image_load_store GL_EXT_shader_integer_mix GL_EXT_shadow_funcs GL_EXT_sparse_texture2 GL_EXT_stencil_two_side GL_EXT_stencil_wrap GL_EXT_texture3D GL_EXT_texture_array GL_EXT_texture_buffer_object GL_EXT_texture_compression_dxt1 GL_EXT_texture_compression_latc GL_EXT_texture_compression_rgtc GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_cube_map GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp GL_EXT_texture_env_combine GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3 GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_EXT_texture_filter_minmax GL_EXT_texture_integer GL_EXT_texture_lod GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp GL_EXT_texture_object GL_EXT_texture_shadow_lod GL_EXT_texture_shared_exponent GL_EXT_texture_sRGB GL_EXT_texture_sRGB_R8 GL_EXT_texture_sRGB_decode GL_EXT_texture_storage GL_EXT_texture_swizzle GL_EXT_timer_query GL_EXT_transform_feedback2 GL_EXT_vertex_array GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra GL_EXT_vertex_attrib_64bit GL_EXT_window_rectangles GL_EXT_import_sync_object GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_KHR_context_flush_control GL_KHR_debug GL_EXT_memory_object GL_EXT_memory_object_win32 GL_NV_memory_object_sparse GL_EXT_win32_keyed_mutex GL_KHR_parallel_shader_compile GL_KHR_no_error GL_KHR_robust_buffer_access_behavior GL_KHR_robustness GL_EXT_semaphore GL_EXT_semaphore_win32 GL_NV_timeline_semaphore GL_KHR_shader_subgroup GL_KTX_buffer_region GL_NV_alpha_to_coverage_dither_control GL_NV_bindless_multi_draw_indirect GL_NV_bindless_multi_draw_indirect_count GL_NV_bindless_texture GL_NV_blend_equation_advanced GL_NV_blend_equation_advanced_coherent GL_NVX_blend_equation_advanced_multi_draw_buffers GL_NV_blend_minmax_factor GL_NV_blend_square GL_NV_clip_space_w_scaling GL_NV_command_list GL_NV_compute_program5 GL_NV_conditional_render GL_NV_conservative_raster GL_NV_conservative_raster_dilate GL_NV_conservative_raster_pre_snap_triangles GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color GL_NV_copy_image GL_NV_depth_buffer_float GL_NV_depth_clamp GL_NV_draw_texture GL_NV_draw_vulkan_image GL_NV_ES1_1_compatibility GL_NV_ES3_1_compatibility GL_NV_explicit_multisample GL_NV_feature_query GL_NV_fence GL_NV_fill_rectangle GL_NV_float_buffer GL_NV_fog_distance GL_NV_fragment_coverage_to_color GL_NV_fragment_program GL_NV_fragment_program_option GL_NV_fragment_program2 GL_NV_fragment_shader_interlock GL_NV_framebuffer_mixed_samples GL_NV_framebuffer_multisample_coverage GL_NV_geometry_shader4 GL_NV_geometry_shader_passthrough GL_NV_gpu_program4 GL_NV_internalformat_sample_query GL_NV_gpu_program4_1 GL_NV_gpu_program5 GL_NV_gpu_program5_mem_extended GL_NV_gpu_program_fp64 GL_NV_gpu_shader5 GL_NV_half_float GL_NV_light_max_exponent GL_NV_memory_attachment GL_NV_multisample_coverage GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint GL_NV_occlusion_query GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil GL_NV_parameter_buffer_object GL_NV_parameter_buffer_object2 GL_NV_path_rendering GL_NV_path_rendering_shared_edge GL_NV_pixel_data_range GL_NV_point_sprite GL_NV_primitive_restart GL_NV_query_resource GL_NV_query_resource_tag GL_NV_register_combiners GL_NV_register_combiners2 GL_NV_sample_locations GL_NV_sample_mask_override_coverage GL_NV_shader_atomic_counters GL_NV_shader_atomic_float GL_NV_shader_atomic_float64 GL_NV_shader_atomic_fp16_vector GL_NV_shader_atomic_int64 GL_NV_shader_buffer_load GL_NV_shader_storage_buffer_object GL_NV_shader_subgroup_partitioned GL_NV_stereo_view_rendering GL_NV_texgen_reflection GL_NV_texture_barrier GL_NV_texture_compression_vtc GL_NV_texture_env_combine4 GL_NV_texture_multisample GL_NV_texture_rectangle GL_NV_texture_rectangle_compressed GL_NV_texture_shader GL_NV_texture_shader2 GL_NV_texture_shader3 GL_NV_transform_feedback GL_NV_transform_feedback2 GL_NV_uniform_buffer_unified_memory GL_NV_uniform_buffer_std430_layout GL_NV_vertex_array_range GL_NV_vertex_array_range2 GL_NV_vertex_attrib_integer_64bit GL_NV_vertex_buffer_unified_memory GL_NV_vertex_program GL_NV_vertex_program1_1 GL_NV_vertex_program2 GL_NV_vertex_program2_option GL_NV_vertex_program3 GL_NV_viewport_array2 GL_NV_viewport_swizzle GL_NVX_conditional_render GL_NVX_linked_gpu_multicast GL_NV_gpu_multicast GL_NVX_gpu_multicast2 GL_NVX_progress_fence GL_NVX_gpu_memory_info GL_NVX_multigpu_info GL_NVX_nvenc_interop GL_NV_shader_thread_group GL_NV_shader_thread_shuffle GL_KHR_blend_equation_advanced GL_KHR_blend_equation_advanced_coherent GL_OVR_multiview GL_OVR_multiview2 GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap GL_SGIS_texture_lod GL_SGIX_depth_texture GL_SGIX_shadow GL_SUN_slice_accum GL_WIN_swap_hint WGL_EXT_swap_control 

[photopoeth]

Update: I've deactivated all plugins except for Excire Search. It seems to be okay, since the plugin continues to to the re-initialize for the missing images. But remember: yesterday it worked fine, too, even all night long until this  morning, when I dared to search for a picture. So I can't really trust it. I would prefer it if Adobbe could read something from my crash reports, which I have sent automatically.

[John R Ellis]

"DirectX: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB (31.0.15.3640)"

That driver is 7 months old. It may not be the cause of your crashes, but LR is very sensitive to driver bugs, and different versions of LR react differently to different drivers. It's good hygiene to run LR with the latest Nvidia Studio driver:

https://www.nvidia.com/download/driverResults.aspx/216926/en-us/

[John R Ellis]

Disabling all the plugins (which you've done) is a good troubleshooting step to narrow down the cause. Of your installed plugins, I believe these have LR tasks or external helper processes that start automatically and run continuously in background:

8) Excire Search

21) jf Smart-Collection Sync

26) LrSuperKeys

27) Snapshot Prefs

You've disabled all but Excire Search. If you still get crashes, then try disabling that too.

[photopoeth]

Alright. I will update the driver. At the moment the Excire plugin is working, so I don't want to touch anything. Maybe indeed a plugin problem? Since all of them except for Excire are disabled... 

Thanks for your feedback on this.

[John R Ellis]

"I would prefer it if Adobbe could read something from my crash reports, which I have sent automatically."

If you attach one of the crash reports here, sometimes we can get a good idea of which features / parts of LR might be causing the crash and narrow down the troubleshooting.

[photopoeth]

I could do that. Where do I find those reports (Windows)? But I fear that there will often be no crash report at all.

[Sameer K]

Hey, @photopoeth. Rightly said by @John R Ellis. I'll share my observations.

One of the things that stood out to me is the number of Config Flags you have & the errors that follow. Try removing the Config.lua flag from the Lightroom Preferences folder.

Secondly, is the catalog on an external drive? As a test, move the catalog or one of the most recent back-ups to the internal drive & check if it helps.

In the meantime, I've checked the crash reports & notified the team to review.

Let us know how it goes. Thanks!

Sameer K

[photopoeth]

Alright, so you mean getting rid of the config.lua in c:\Users\<user>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom\ folder. I think that renaming the file would do the job.

The catalog is on an internal SSD.

Good to know, that you're looking into the crash reports.

As I said: at the moment it's running without crashing and the Excire plugin does it's job. There are only another 49.000 images to initialize.. 😉 So I will let it run without touching ("never touch a running system") until either the plugin finiches its job or another crash happens.

[photopoeth]

I removed the text from here  and posted it as a reply to my original post further up. I don't know how to delete a reply completely.

Update:

After the Excire plugin was finished, I activated the Anyfilter plugin to find some images that could not be initialized.

[...]

[GoldingD]

 sometimes it's happening while the program just sits in the background and I'm doing something else 

• Is Face Detection running?
• Is any sync to cloud running?
• Is any sync from cloud running?
• Do you automatically save XMP?

[photopoeth]

 sometimes it's happening while the program just sits in the background and I'm doing something else 

• Is Face Detection running?

No

• Is any sync to cloud running?

Yes, sometimes it is.

• Is any sync from cloud running?

Not so often, but it could happen, too.

• Do you automatically save XMP?

Yes, I do.

By @GoldingD

[photopoeth]

2024-Jan-19 Update #1:

After the Excire plugin was finished re-initializing my images, I decided to work a bit in my library to see if I encounter any crashes. Therefore I activated the Anyfilter plugin to find some images that could not be initialized by Excire.

It worked well and I had NO CRASH at all!

I then closed LrC and performed the suggested actions:
1. updated the graphics driver (tip by @John R Ellis )
2. removed config.lua (tip by @Sameer K )

The (sad) result so far: LrC crashed twice after a few seconds (without any action from me). Now after the third start it runs (also without any action from me so far).

Here's the current system information: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lightroom Classic-Version: 13.1 [ 202312111226-41a494e8 ]

Lizenz: Creative Cloud

Spracheinstellung: de

Betriebssystem: Windows 11 - Business Edition

Version: 11.0.22621

Anwendungsarchitektur: x64

Systemarchitektur: x64

Anzahl logischer Prozessoren: 16

Prozessorgeschwindigkeit: 3,6GHz

SQLite-Version: 3.36.0

CPU-Auslastung: 9,0%

Integrierter Speicher: 65461,5 MB

Dedizierter GPU-Speicher, der von Lightroom verwendet wird: 671,7MB / 6044,0MB (11%)

Für Lightroom verfügbarer phys. Speicher: 65461,5 MB

Von Lightroom verwendeter phys. Speicher: 3167,5 MB (4,8%)

Von Lightroom verwendeter virtueller Speicher: 4287,0 MB

Anzahl GDI-Objekte: 919

Anzahl BENUTZER-Objekte: 2490

Anzahl Prozess-Handles: 7299

Cache-Speichergröße: 98,8MB

Interne Camera Raw-Version: 16.1 [ 1728 ]

Maximale Anzahl Threads, die Camera Raw verwendet: 5

Camera Raw SIMD-Optimierung: SSE2,AVX,AVX2

Virtueller Speicher in Camera Raw: 144MB / 32730MB (0%)

Physischer Speicher in Camera Raw: -125MB / 65461MB (0%)

DPI-Einstellung des Systems: 96 DPI

Desktop-Komposition aktiviert: Ja

Standardvorschaugröße: 2560 Pixel

Monitore/Anzeigegeräte: 1) 2560x1440, 2) 1280x1024

Eingabetypen: Multitouch: Nein, integrierte Toucheingabe: Nein, integrierter Stift: Ja, externe Toucheingabe: Nein, externer Stift: Ja, Tastatur: Nein

Informationen zum Grafikprozessor: 

DirectX: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB (31.0.15.4633)

Anfangsstatus: GPU wird standardmäßig für die Bildverarbeitung unterstützt

Benutzerpräferenz: Automatisch

Anwendungsordner: C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Lightroom Classic

Bibliothekspfad: I:\LR-Katalog\ThP.lrcat

Einstellungen-Ordner: C:\Users\Thomas\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Lightroom

Installierte Zusatzmodule: 

1) Any Filter

2) Excire Search

Config.lua-Flags: None

Adapter Nr. 1: Anbieter : 10de

Gerät : 1b83

Subsystem : 328d1462

Version : a1

Grafikspeicher : 6044

Adapter Nr. 2: Anbieter : 1414

Gerät : 8c

Subsystem : 0

Version : 0

Grafikspeicher : 0

AudioDeviceIOBlockSize: 1024

AudioDeviceName: $$$/dvaaudiodevice/SystemDefaultAndEffectiveDeviceName=System Default - Line (3- AG06/AG03)#{comment}DVAAU-4201250: Open the audio hardware preferences page.

AudioDeviceNumberOfChannels: 2

AudioDeviceSampleRate: 44100

Build: LR5x120

Direct2DEnabled: false

GL_ACCUM_ALPHA_BITS: 16

GL_ACCUM_BLUE_BITS: 16

GL_ACCUM_GREEN_BITS: 16

GL_ACCUM_RED_BITS: 16

GL_ALPHA_BITS: 0

GL_BLUE_BITS: 8

GL_DEPTH_BITS: 24

GL_GREEN_BITS: 8

GL_MAX_3D_TEXTURE_SIZE: 16384

GL_MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE: 32768

GL_MAX_TEXTURE_UNITS: 4

GL_MAX_VIEWPORT_DIMS: 32768,32768

GL_RED_BITS: 8

GL_RENDERER: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB/PCIe/SSE2

GL_SHADING_LANGUAGE_VERSION: 4.60 NVIDIA

GL_STENCIL_BITS: 8

GL_VENDOR: NVIDIA Corporation

GL_VERSION: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 546.33

GPUDeviceEnabled: false

OGLEnabled: true

GL_EXTENSIONS: GL_AMD_multi_draw_indirect GL_AMD_seamless_cubemap_per_texture GL_AMD_vertex_shader_viewport_index GL_AMD_vertex_shader_layer GL_ARB_arrays_of_arrays GL_ARB_base_instance GL_ARB_bindless_texture GL_ARB_blend_func_extended GL_ARB_buffer_storage GL_ARB_clear_buffer_object GL_ARB_clear_texture GL_ARB_clip_control GL_ARB_color_buffer_float GL_ARB_compatibility GL_ARB_compressed_texture_pixel_storage GL_ARB_conservative_depth GL_ARB_compute_shader GL_ARB_compute_variable_group_size GL_ARB_conditional_render_inverted GL_ARB_copy_buffer GL_ARB_copy_image GL_ARB_cull_distance GL_ARB_debug_output GL_ARB_depth_buffer_float GL_ARB_depth_clamp GL_ARB_depth_texture GL_ARB_derivative_control GL_ARB_direct_state_access GL_ARB_draw_buffers GL_ARB_draw_buffers_blend GL_ARB_draw_indirect GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex GL_ARB_draw_instanced GL_ARB_enhanced_layouts GL_ARB_ES2_compatibility GL_ARB_ES3_compatibility GL_ARB_ES3_1_compatibility GL_ARB_ES3_2_compatibility GL_ARB_explicit_attrib_location GL_ARB_explicit_uniform_location GL_ARB_fragment_coord_conventions GL_ARB_fragment_layer_viewport GL_ARB_fragment_program GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow GL_ARB_fragment_shader GL_ARB_fragment_shader_interlock GL_ARB_framebuffer_no_attachments GL_ARB_framebuffer_object GL_ARB_framebuffer_sRGB GL_ARB_geometry_shader4 GL_ARB_get_program_binary GL_ARB_get_texture_sub_image GL_ARB_gl_spirv GL_ARB_gpu_shader5 GL_ARB_gpu_shader_fp64 GL_ARB_gpu_shader_int64 GL_ARB_half_float_pixel GL_ARB_half_float_vertex GL_ARB_imaging GL_ARB_indirect_parameters GL_ARB_instanced_arrays GL_ARB_internalformat_query GL_ARB_internalformat_query2 GL_ARB_invalidate_subdata GL_ARB_map_buffer_alignment GL_ARB_map_buffer_range GL_ARB_multi_bind GL_ARB_multi_draw_indirect GL_ARB_multisample GL_ARB_multitexture GL_ARB_occlusion_query GL_ARB_occlusion_query2 GL_ARB_parallel_shader_compile GL_ARB_pipeline_statistics_query GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object GL_ARB_point_parameters GL_ARB_point_sprite GL_ARB_polygon_offset_clamp GL_ARB_post_depth_coverage GL_ARB_program_interface_query GL_ARB_provoking_vertex GL_ARB_query_buffer_object GL_ARB_robust_buffer_access_behavior GL_ARB_robustness GL_ARB_sample_locations GL_ARB_sample_shading GL_ARB_sampler_objects GL_ARB_seamless_cube_map GL_ARB_seamless_cubemap_per_texture GL_ARB_separate_shader_objects GL_ARB_shader_atomic_counter_ops GL_ARB_shader_atomic_counters GL_ARB_shader_ballot GL_ARB_shader_bit_encoding GL_ARB_shader_clock GL_ARB_shader_draw_parameters GL_ARB_shader_group_vote GL_ARB_shader_image_load_store GL_ARB_shader_image_size GL_ARB_shader_objects GL_ARB_shader_precision GL_ARB_shader_storage_buffer_object GL_ARB_shader_subroutine GL_ARB_shader_texture_image_samples GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod GL_ARB_shading_language_100 GL_ARB_shader_viewport_layer_array GL_ARB_shading_language_420pack GL_ARB_shading_language_include GL_ARB_shading_language_packing GL_ARB_shadow GL_ARB_sparse_buffer GL_ARB_sparse_texture GL_ARB_sparse_texture2 GL_ARB_sparse_texture_clamp GL_ARB_spirv_extensions GL_ARB_stencil_texturing GL_ARB_sync GL_ARB_tessellation_shader GL_ARB_texture_barrier GL_ARB_texture_border_clamp GL_ARB_texture_buffer_object GL_ARB_texture_buffer_object_rgb32 GL_ARB_texture_buffer_range GL_ARB_texture_compression GL_ARB_texture_compression_bptc GL_ARB_texture_compression_rgtc GL_ARB_texture_cube_map GL_ARB_texture_cube_map_array GL_ARB_texture_env_add GL_ARB_texture_env_combine GL_ARB_texture_env_crossbar GL_ARB_texture_env_dot3 GL_ARB_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_ARB_texture_filter_minmax GL_ARB_texture_float GL_ARB_texture_gather GL_ARB_texture_mirror_clamp_to_edge GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_ARB_texture_multisample GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two GL_ARB_texture_query_levels GL_ARB_texture_query_lod GL_ARB_texture_rectangle GL_ARB_texture_rg GL_ARB_texture_rgb10_a2ui GL_ARB_texture_stencil8 GL_ARB_texture_storage GL_ARB_texture_storage_multisample GL_ARB_texture_swizzle GL_ARB_texture_view GL_ARB_timer_query GL_ARB_transform_feedback2 GL_ARB_transform_feedback3 GL_ARB_transform_feedback_instanced GL_ARB_transform_feedback_overflow_query GL_ARB_transpose_matrix GL_ARB_uniform_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_array_bgra GL_ARB_vertex_array_object GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_64bit GL_ARB_vertex_attrib_binding GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object GL_ARB_vertex_program GL_ARB_vertex_shader GL_ARB_vertex_type_10f_11f_11f_rev GL_ARB_vertex_type_2_10_10_10_rev GL_ARB_viewport_array GL_ARB_window_pos GL_ATI_draw_buffers GL_ATI_texture_float GL_ATI_texture_mirror_once GL_S3_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_env_add GL_EXT_abgr GL_EXT_bgra GL_EXT_bindable_uniform GL_EXT_blend_color GL_EXT_blend_equation_separate GL_EXT_blend_func_separate GL_EXT_blend_minmax GL_EXT_blend_subtract GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array GL_EXT_Cg_shader GL_EXT_depth_bounds_test GL_EXT_direct_state_access GL_EXT_draw_buffers2 GL_EXT_draw_instanced GL_EXT_draw_range_elements GL_EXT_fog_coord GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample GL_EXTX_framebuffer_mixed_formats GL_EXT_framebuffer_multisample_blit_scaled GL_EXT_framebuffer_object GL_EXT_framebuffer_sRGB GL_EXT_geometry_shader4 GL_EXT_gpu_program_parameters GL_EXT_gpu_shader4 GL_EXT_multi_draw_arrays GL_EXT_multiview_texture_multisample GL_EXT_multiview_timer_query GL_EXT_packed_depth_stencil GL_EXT_packed_float GL_EXT_packed_pixels GL_EXT_pixel_buffer_object GL_EXT_point_parameters GL_EXT_polygon_offset_clamp GL_EXT_post_depth_coverage GL_EXT_provoking_vertex GL_EXT_raster_multisample GL_EXT_rescale_normal GL_EXT_secondary_color GL_EXT_separate_shader_objects GL_EXT_separate_specular_color GL_EXT_shader_image_load_formatted GL_EXT_shader_image_load_store GL_EXT_shader_integer_mix GL_EXT_shadow_funcs GL_EXT_sparse_texture2 GL_EXT_stencil_two_side GL_EXT_stencil_wrap GL_EXT_texture3D GL_EXT_texture_array GL_EXT_texture_buffer_object GL_EXT_texture_compression_dxt1 GL_EXT_texture_compression_latc GL_EXT_texture_compression_rgtc GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc GL_EXT_texture_cube_map GL_EXT_texture_edge_clamp GL_EXT_texture_env_combine GL_EXT_texture_env_dot3 GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic GL_EXT_texture_filter_minmax GL_EXT_texture_integer GL_EXT_texture_lod GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias GL_EXT_texture_mirror_clamp GL_EXT_texture_object GL_EXT_texture_shadow_lod GL_EXT_texture_shared_exponent GL_EXT_texture_sRGB GL_EXT_texture_sRGB_R8 GL_EXT_texture_sRGB_decode GL_EXT_texture_storage GL_EXT_texture_swizzle GL_EXT_timer_query GL_EXT_transform_feedback2 GL_EXT_vertex_array GL_EXT_vertex_array_bgra GL_EXT_vertex_attrib_64bit GL_EXT_window_rectangles GL_EXT_import_sync_object GL_IBM_rasterpos_clip GL_IBM_texture_mirrored_repeat GL_KHR_context_flush_control GL_KHR_debug GL_EXT_memory_object GL_EXT_memory_object_win32 GL_NV_memory_object_sparse GL_EXT_win32_keyed_mutex GL_KHR_parallel_shader_compile GL_KHR_no_error GL_KHR_robust_buffer_access_behavior GL_KHR_robustness GL_EXT_semaphore GL_EXT_semaphore_win32 GL_NV_timeline_semaphore GL_KHR_shader_subgroup GL_KTX_buffer_region GL_NV_alpha_to_coverage_dither_control GL_NV_bindless_multi_draw_indirect GL_NV_bindless_multi_draw_indirect_count GL_NV_bindless_texture GL_NV_blend_equation_advanced GL_NV_blend_equation_advanced_coherent GL_NVX_blend_equation_advanced_multi_draw_buffers GL_NV_blend_minmax_factor GL_NV_blend_square GL_NV_clip_space_w_scaling GL_NV_command_list GL_NV_compute_program5 GL_NV_conditional_render GL_NV_conservative_raster GL_NV_conservative_raster_dilate GL_NV_conservative_raster_pre_snap_triangles GL_NV_copy_depth_to_color GL_NV_copy_image GL_NV_depth_buffer_float GL_NV_depth_clamp GL_NV_draw_texture GL_NV_draw_vulkan_image GL_NV_ES1_1_compatibility GL_NV_ES3_1_compatibility GL_NV_explicit_multisample GL_NV_feature_query GL_NV_fence GL_NV_fill_rectangle GL_NV_float_buffer GL_NV_fog_distance GL_NV_fragment_coverage_to_color GL_NV_fragment_program GL_NV_fragment_program_option GL_NV_fragment_program2 GL_NV_fragment_shader_interlock GL_NV_framebuffer_mixed_samples GL_NV_framebuffer_multisample_coverage GL_NV_geometry_shader4 GL_NV_geometry_shader_passthrough GL_NV_gpu_program4 GL_NV_internalformat_sample_query GL_NV_gpu_program4_1 GL_NV_gpu_program5 GL_NV_gpu_program5_mem_extended GL_NV_gpu_program_fp64 GL_NV_gpu_shader5 GL_NV_half_float GL_NV_light_max_exponent GL_NV_memory_attachment GL_NV_multisample_coverage GL_NV_multisample_filter_hint GL_NV_occlusion_query GL_NV_packed_depth_stencil GL_NV_parameter_buffer_object GL_NV_parameter_buffer_object2 GL_NV_path_rendering GL_NV_path_rendering_shared_edge GL_NV_pixel_data_range GL_NV_point_sprite GL_NV_primitive_restart GL_NV_query_resource GL_NV_query_resource_tag GL_NV_register_combiners GL_NV_register_combiners2 GL_NV_sample_locations GL_NV_sample_mask_override_coverage GL_NV_shader_atomic_counters GL_NV_shader_atomic_float GL_NV_shader_atomic_float64 GL_NV_shader_atomic_fp16_vector GL_NV_shader_atomic_int64 GL_NV_shader_buffer_load GL_NV_shader_storage_buffer_object GL_NV_shader_subgroup_partitioned GL_NV_stereo_view_rendering GL_NV_texgen_reflection GL_NV_texture_barrier GL_NV_texture_compression_vtc GL_NV_texture_env_combine4 GL_NV_texture_multisample GL_NV_texture_rectangle GL_NV_texture_rectangle_compressed GL_NV_texture_shader GL_NV_texture_shader2 GL_NV_texture_shader3 GL_NV_transform_feedback GL_NV_transform_feedback2 GL_NV_uniform_buffer_unified_memory GL_NV_uniform_buffer_std430_layout GL_NV_vertex_array_range GL_NV_vertex_array_range2 GL_NV_vertex_attrib_integer_64bit GL_NV_vertex_buffer_unified_memory GL_NV_vertex_program GL_NV_vertex_program1_1 GL_NV_vertex_program2 GL_NV_vertex_program2_option GL_NV_vertex_program3 GL_NV_viewport_array2 GL_NV_viewport_swizzle GL_NVX_conditional_render GL_NVX_linked_gpu_multicast GL_NV_gpu_multicast GL_NVX_gpu_multicast2 GL_NVX_progress_fence GL_NVX_gpu_memory_info GL_NVX_multigpu_info GL_NVX_nvenc_interop GL_NV_shader_thread_group GL_NV_shader_thread_shuffle GL_KHR_blend_equation_advanced GL_KHR_blend_equation_advanced_coherent GL_OVR_multiview GL_OVR_multiview2 GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap GL_SGIS_texture_lod GL_SGIX_depth_texture GL_SGIX_shadow GL_SUN_slice_accum GL_WIN_swap_hint WGL_EXT_swap_control

[photopoeth]

2024-Jan-19 Update #2:
As I mentioned in my Update #1 after the 3rd start LrC didn't crash by itself so I decided to work on 2 images for a client. After probably 20 mins. LrC crashed (while using the healing tool - but I don't think this is important). Now I am not able to get it up and running: sometimes it crashes while starting, then it crashes after a few secs. I tried to disable the automatic XMP saving, but it's not possible becuae of LrC crashing on my way to do this. 

This is depressing 😞  @Sameer K   Hopefully Adobe finds something in my crash reports

[photopoeth]

2024-Jan-19 Update #3:
In the meantime I was able to deactivate the automatic saving in XMPs - didn't help. LrC keeps crashing and crashing - no working possible.

[John R Ellis]

Reviewing the thread, I think it would be good to rule out Excire Search as well by running LR for quite a while with it disabled. 

Important: After disabling a plugin that may have background tasks running, restart LR. Many plugins won't notice they've been disabled and stop their background tasks.

[photopoeth]

Yh, maybe that's a good idea. I will try... the problem is: even if it runs for quite a time, it doesn't mean that it doesn't crash the next minute. That's why I would appreciate if I could find the cause without just trial and error.

[John R Ellis]

"That's why I would appreciate if I could find the cause without just trial and error."

In this instance, I think the only alternative to narrowing down the cause by trial-and-error is to have an Adobe developer spend some time examining the crash logs. Sometimes they do that, sometimes they don't, but it rarely happens quickly.  At least Sameer has confirmed he found the crash reports you submitted and has sent them to the developers to review.

[photopoeth]

I really hope that happens. Thank you @Sameer K! 

I agree with the well-known phrase:

"Testing can only ever prove the presence, but never the absence of errors."
Edsger Wybe Dijkstra, The Humble Programmer, ACM Turing Lecture 1972

[photopoeth]

Another Update: I finally got LrC up and running yesterday. After that I didn't change anything e.g. disable Excire plugin. On the contrary, I have tested Excire Search quite extensively and I haven't had a crash since. My computer has been on all the time since the LrC's successful restart yesterday (> 24h) and LrC is still running without crashing.

And that's exactly what I meant: I won't be able to solve the problem just by trial-and-error. Imagine I had deactivated Excire. Then the conclusion would have been that Excire was the reason.
But in reality I haven't changed anything and nevertheless I haven't encountered any crashes since yesterday. But the crash can come at any time. I refuse to believe that problem will just disappear by itself. 😞

[John R Ellis]

After your next crash, leave Excire turned off for twice as long as it is from right now until the next crash. If you can go without a crash for very long periods with Excire turned off, then that is stronger evidence.

Also, run Windows hardware diagnostics repeatedly. If you have an intermittently flaky memory chip, LR can be more likely to trip over it because it uses much more memory, more heavily, than nearly all other typical apps. Ditto for the disk and external USB connections.

[photopoeth]

I can see what you're going for. But what I'm wondering: why didn't I have any problems until I upgraded to 13.x? Version 12.5 ran without any problems. I can't rule it out, but I can't imagine that it's actually Excire or a hardware problem.
Above all, the previous version of Excire was still running until a few days ago and I also had crashes with LrC 13.x. And do you really think that versions below 13.x where more robust to hardware failures?
Again: it is possible, but I doubt it. To me it seems more of a SW problem with the LrC version 13.x.

[John R Ellis]

Your symptoms appear to be rare -- few reports here. So that suggests something that's quite specific to your configuration. Absent Adobe's investigation of your logs, your only alternative (other than to stay on LR 12 or walk away from LR) is to rule out other possibilities (which almost by definition, won't occur very frequently across the LR user base).

Regarding Excire, it's not uncommon for new releases of LR to trip up plugins that worked fine in previous versions, either due to a newly introduced bug in the new LR version or a change in internal behavior that's not a bug but triggers a latent bug in the plugin. (I'm a plugin developer.)   So make sure you've got the most recent version of Excire and test that you can run for many days without crash when Excire is disabled.

Regarding possible hardware failures affecting LR 13 but not LR 12, it may be that changes in LR 13 are causing Mac OS to allocate physical memory or access the disk in a different pattern than LR 12, and that LR 13 thus is much more likely to trip over hardware problem. Based on bug reports here, the LR developers continue to make significant changes to LR library internals. LR uses much more memory than nearly any other app, so youl could well encounter memory (or disk) issues only when using LR.

I've seen similar instances over the decades. They're rare, but your issue is uncommon too. 

[photopoeth]

Hi John, I really appreciate your feedback. Thanks a lot for that.

Your symptoms appear to be rare -- few reports here. So that suggests something that's quite specific to your configuration. Absent Adobe's investigation of your logs,

 Hopefully this will happen one day...

your only alternative (other than to stay on LR 12 or walk away from LR) is to rule out other possibilities (which almost by definition, won't occur very frequently across the LR user base).

As a seasoned LrC user giving workshops to step away from LrC ist not an option. On the other hand if upgrades won't work I may be forced to. 😞

Regarding Excire, it's not uncommon for new releases of LR to trip up plugins that worked fine in previous versions, either due to a newly introduced bug in the new LR version or a change in internal behavior that's not a bug but triggers a latent bug in the plugin. (I'm a plugin developer.)   So make sure you've got the most recent version of Excire and test that you can run for many days without crash when Excire is disabled.

Interesting fact: since 3 days I had not one single crash! I have no idea why and I haven't (at least knowingly) changed anything.
I'm working quite intensively with Excire because I want to do a field report on the new version for our next podcast episode. No problem since then...

Regarding possible hardware failures affecting LR 13 but not LR 12, it may be that changes in LR 13 are causing Mac OS to allocate physical memory or access the disk in a different pattern than LR 12, and that LR 13 thus is much more likely to trip over hardware problem. Based on bug reports here, the LR developers continue to make significant changes to LR library internals. LR uses much more memory than nearly any other app, so youl could well encounter memory (or disk) issues only when using LR.

I am working on Windows, but I think your statement also applies to this. If that's my problem, it's hard to find for me, I guess.

For now, I'll have to be content with the lack of crashes and hope that Adobe finds something significant in my log files. Fingers crossed!

[photopoeth]

Crashes are back! I've worked now for nearly 2 weeks without any crash, when an hour ago it suddenly happened again. 😞 Starting up Lightroom again took me a few tries because of crashing while starting the program. Then I've encoutered a lot of crashes during the first 30 secs. or so.
@Sameer K I haven't heared back from you fpor a log time now. Is there anything happening with my crash reports? This is really depressing. I am loosing money when I cannot rely on Lightroom Classic to run stable. Since I am giving online workshops it's viable for me to use the latest versions at the latest after there have been updates for bugfixes, as should be the case with version 13.

So, please Adobe don't let me down...