padding to a standard export ratio

[mitch28429832jb21]

I've got a series of photos that I'm printing out to fit in various antique frames. The source images are JPGs, at various aspect ratios. The frames have openings that are of various sizes & aspect ratios, ranging from 1.0 (square) to 1.67. I've pre-visualized the most pleasing resize & crop for each photo/frame in Photoshop, using photos of the actual frames. However, this pre-viz was approximate and done on the un-color-corrected photos.

What I'd like to do now is export the original photos with color corrections from Lightroom for printing, with the correct cropping for its specific frame, at the right physical size... Knowing that the printer only has a limited number of choices for print size (4x6, 5x7, 8x10, etc.), and their web interface does not allow you to specify DPI. That is, if I send a 900 x 1200 pixel file to the printer, I can't tell them to interpret it as 300 DPI = 3" x 4", and have them just center it in a 4x6 print - they'll always scale the uploaded file to the maximum size that fits.

It seems like I can get close with the "Mogrify" export plugin:

• Eyeball match the Photoshop crop in Lightroom, using the Custom crop option to set the aspect ratio to the actual measured dimensions of the frame's opening.
• Set export Resize to the frame's opening dimensions in inches.
• Set Mogrify's "Canvas" option to the nearest printable size. So 1200x1800 for a 4x6, and Mogrify will pad the edges with a solid color.
• Export to JPG, which is all that the printer will accept.
• The problem with this option is that there's no bleed. If my physical frame measurements are slightly off (which they most certainly are), I'll likely get the padding color showing in the frame.

Alternatively:

• Export full size from Lightroom. (Maybe as TIFF, to avoid re-compressing to JPG?)
• In the Photoshop file (which is set to 300 DPI, and has the frames scaled to roughly correct dimensions), eyeball match the color corrected Lightroom export to the correct scale.
• Cut and paste the resulting resize into a new PSD at the closest printable aspect ratio - getting the edge padding for "free".
• Re-export to JPG, which is all that the printer will accept.
•  

Both of these are sort of labor-intensive. What I'd love to be able to do is:

• Eyeball match the Photoshop crop in Lightroom, using the Custom crop option to set the aspect ratio to the actual measured dimensions of the frame's opening.
• Tell Lightroom, "Seat the crop in a 4x6 canvas, but export *uncropped* - discarding pixels that fall outside the canvas."
• Export once, to JPG at 300 DPI.

Is such a thing possible, with stock Lightroom CC, or some plugin? Or can someone think of a workflow that's less painful and involves fewer export/imports?

I've attached a layout that describes the problem.

[mitch28429832jb21]

Oh - should have mentioned:  Lightroom Classic 5.7.1.  Windows 10.  (Where's the Edit button?)

[DdeGannes]

There is no Lightroom Classic 5.7.1, if you are referring to the original Lightroom application that is activated with a serial number then the application is Lightroom 5.7.1.

Lightroom Classic is only available via a subscription payable annually with an option to pay monthly.

[mitch28429832jb21]

Thanks for the clarification.  Does this post need to be moved to a different forum?

[DdeGannes]

No Lightroom Classic is a descendant of the original Lightroom application so printing from Lightroom 5.7.1 is basically the same as printing printing from Lightroom Classic.

However printing from Photoshop is different from printing from Lightroom Classic / Lightroom.

Which application do you wish to actually use for your printing, that will allow other users to offer appropriate information.

[mitch28429832jb21]

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm agnostic to the application used for export.  My main concern is preserving quality, and fewest number of steps.

It's only the fact that the pre-viz exists in Photoshop, since that would have been impossible in Lightroom, that Photoshop is involved at all.  If a Lightroom-only workflow (option #3 - my "ideal" workflow) exists, that's great.  If it's not possible export in Lightroom with the crop-size-preserving, canvas-fitting, and bleed-preservation described, then I'm willing to go back into Photoshop to get it done.

I'm conversant in various image software, being a VFX veteran.  I just haven't had to do print work like this before.

[GoldingD]

A screen capture of your copy of Lightroom, in the Library Module. The full screen, would help clarify what exact app you are using.

Problem is caused by Adobe Marketing that confuses application name, Photoshop Lightroom, Lightroom CC, Lightroom, Lightroom Ecosystem (Cloud Based), Lightroom Classic.

Also, in Lightroom, click on Help, then System Info, copy and paste first five or so lines in a reply.

Example:

Lightroom Classic version: 12.0.1 [ 202210260744-9e008017 ]
License: Creative Cloud
Language setting: en
Operating system: Windows 10 - Business Edition
Version: 10.0.19045
Application architecture: x64

P.S. when posting a screen capture, please use the Insert Photo button in this community site as opposed to the Attachment button. Some members refuse to view attachments, and it works better that way anyhow.

[mitch28429832jb21]

Here ya go - thanks.  Why the OS version is incorrect, I have no idea.  As you can tell, this is a very old version of LR, orginally installed by the company I bought my workstation/licenses from.  I've not attempted to upgrade it, because it works fine for my purposes, and my use is occasional.  If I were a professional photo guy, I'm sure I'd be on whatever the latest release is.

Lightroom version: 5.7.1 [994254]
License type: Perpetual
Operating system: Windows 8.1 Business Edition
Version: 6.3 [9600]
Application architecture: x64
System architecture: x64

[Bob Somrak]

This can be done in the Print Module which was the same in 5.71 i think

See here

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-discussions/print-module-instagram/m-p/12790613

[mitch28429832jb21]

Bob - thanks for the reply.  This is very close to what I'm trying to achieve...  The only piece missing is specifying the size of the "virtual crop" area as the driving metric for the image sizing.

If I crop it in Develop, using the 4.25" x 6.25" frame opening dimensions as the crop area, then go to Print and set the Cell Size to 4.25" x 6.25", it gives me the result outlined in workflow #1 (Mogrify) in my original post.  That is, it's cropped, sized correctly, and embedded in an image of Custom File Dimensions 5"x7".  (Refer to the attachment mockup on the original post.)

But what it's missing is the bleed.  What I'd like to achieve is exactly what Print gives me, but with the crop removed, so that the full image is printed, maintaining the 4.25"x6.25" dimensions of the intended crop.  I suppose there's some math I could calculate to work around this:

• Crop to 4.25" x 6.25" in Develop
• Math based on crop area vs. full image resolution = ???
• Set the Cell Size in Print module to the appropriate value that keeps the intended crop at 4.25"x6.25"

Just removing the crop prior to the Print module shrinks the full image to fit, as you can see.  What I'm after is the full image being allowed to bleed all the way out to wherever it would end up, based on the intended 4.25"x6.25" crop.  (In this case, it would mostly just be the bottom edge extending downward with the plate & countertop.  But other photos might have more bleed on all four sides.)

[Bob Somrak]

Yes, you can do exactly what you want in the Print to JPG.  If I get more time I will use your above example and set the margins and output parameters to do this and post dialog screen shots.

[mitch28429832jb21]

Thanks - that would be...  well, Legendary.  😉

btw - if your time is short, feel free to just describe it in text.  I'm fairly certain the math is simple, my brain is just too fried at this point to work it out.  I was hoping there was a "remove crop, maintain crop dimensions" checkbox, but I suspect it's a matter of figuring out the ratio of the crop size (left) to the full image size (right), and adjusting the Print parameters accordingly.

[Bob Somrak]

Unless I am missing something this should give you want you want.  You can place the FULL size image in the box and make sure ZOOM TO FILL is checked.  Then drag the image up or down in the box to place it where you want it. Or, you can crop to the 4.25x6.25 aspect.  The first method is easier. 

The File Resolution is set at 300ppi as that is for the whole 5x7 paper size so the photo will still be 300dpi for print.  I closed the sections of the print dialog that were not important

BTW, I think you almost had it except for the Zoom to Fill

 

[Bob Somrak]

You also might want to set the Background Color so the Lab will NOT automatically cut off the white edges.  I would set it to Neutral Gray in case they also do automatic color correction.   If your Lab does these things I would find a more professional lab

 

[mitch28429832jb21]

Bob - thanks for the reply, and the tip about the background color.

Unless *I'm* missing something, I think the thing you were missing is that these photos were not just cropped down from their initial resolution in photoshop.  That is:  say I have a 4.25"x6.25" frame image in PS, and then I drop that particular Shrimp-guy image in to see how it looks in the frame.  The original image is 3096s5504, and it comes in as roughly 10.3"x18.3".  Then it was scaled, translated, etc. until it looked right in the frame.

So it's really the scaling factor that's been lost.  Which is the essence of option #2 in my post above.  If I export the full size image out of LR, and eyeball scale it to match in PS, then drop that layer into a 5"x7" blank PSD, I get what I want.

Zoom to Fill just seems to take the full image and makes the short side the width of the paper.  Which doesn't guarantee that the pre-vized crop area is actually 4.25"x6.25".  (Since that crop information doesn't exist unless I crop in LR, at which point I've lost my bleed area.)

[Bob Somrak]

You have to set the paper size to 5x7 and then create the photo "cell size"  to 4.25x6.25 and make sure the side margins are equal.  Then when you place the photo is the cell and zoom to fit the narrow side will fill the box horizontally and you can use the hand to drag up and down. The other option is to use crop at the correct aspect and drag the photo to the cell and no moving is necessary.  I created the JPG in my test and all was correct.  Its very important how you set up the Print Job section.  The DPI can be anything but 300 is great for the size you are printing.

[Bob Somrak]

@mitch28429832jb21 

Here is what I got when doing this

Paper Setup using "Any Printer".  Yours may look different on Windows.  This is Mac

A little different Print dialog as I changed the margins to 0 and accidently changed the dpi to 400. You do not have to worry about the margins as the cell will automatically center.

Image in Print Module

LrC Print to JPG   DPI is 400.  It can be anything you want.    If you print this on a 5x7 the image will be at the 4.25x6.25 size you want at 40 dpi print res and you can trim off most of the gray to fit the frame.  (provided the Lab prints it correctly)  The round corners are from Apple Finder display.  

    

[mitch28429832jb21]

Bob - thanks for the continued help.  I think maybe Shrimp Guy was a poor example, because the crop was basically all in one axis.  So I decided to try a more extreme example:  a 2.75" x 3.75" crop taken out of the center of a much larger image, so that it was cropped on both axes.

Using a Cell Size of 2.75" x 3.75", paper size of 4"x6", Zoom to Fill, and zero margins, my results are below.  You can see that it's not possible to recreate the pre-viz crop, because the scaling is off.  If I were to print like this, and trim the print to the correct framing, it would be too small.

Alternatively, I can get the right horizonal framing (and presumably the correct scaling) by setting the Cell Size Height to 3.15", leaving the width at the correct 3.75".  Which gives me some bleed at the bottom, but none at the sides.

What I'm really going for is to get the correctly framed area at the correct physical size, but then instead of white or grey immediately outside this area, let the unused image bleed out.

I thought about cropping correctly in Develop, then expanding that crop by say 10%, then in Print, do something similar for the Cell Size (increase by 10%).  That seems like it would work...  But the Crop tool doesn't seem to allow you to specify precise numbers to expand the crop like that.  (Plus, it gets more complicated when the crop is all the way to one side of the frame, and there's no bleed area to expand into.)

With some photos being cropped in just one axis, and some in two, and the crops often being up against one edge or the other - and in fact, some of the frames being oval - I'm feeling like my best bet is just to eyeball match the scale in PS, then dump the results into a blank, grey 4x6, 5x7, etc.

[Bob Somrak]

In your example, you should change the paper orientation in Page Setup to Landscape to better fit the photo to the paper.  Using the original example, if you want photo bleed under the frame than change the Cell Size in Print to 4.35x6.35 or something and the crop the photo to that aspect ratio and allow a little extra in your cropping for the bleed.  This will allow .05 bleed on all sides.  Adjust these number to what you need.   This all works for me using Print to JPG in LrC.

[Bob Somrak]

The issue why it is not working for you is you are using 5.7.1.   Do you have all the dialogs in the Print Module as I have posted?  The Print to File works great for all kind of things BUT I wish it would print to TIFF also.  TIFF print has been requested many time but Adobe has ignored the requests.

[Bob Somrak]

I meant to say "The issue why it is not working for you may be because you are using Lr 5.7.1 and/or Windows 8."    I am on LrC 12.2.   

[richardplondon]

In terms of how LR Classic can help you, one useful tool is to turn on the display of "Dimensions" in the Print module. Then when you take a desired crop, and place it into an image cell of the desired size in inches, LrC will display whatever output PPI this print scenario involves. I would think removing the crop, outputting the entire image unresampled and at this same PPI, will give you what you want so far as "inches" scaling, albeit of an image that is overall sized different in "inches" terms, than your desired final page size that will be printed.

So a second crop might trim down to this desired page sizing (as measured in inches). One way might be by including a postprocessing step to this export, whether ImageMagick or a Photoshop droplet-encoded Action, or whatever other utility. If this export is reimported, the LrC plugin "Any Crop" (which I believe offers cropping an area defined in inches terms) - might be an option. Whatever works efficiently. I can't vouch for this from experience, but my impression is that neither Any Crop nor any other tool will give you in a single operation  the result you want, since two definitions would be necessary to combine - the desired cutout crop to establish scaling and the overall containing crop to establish extent.

Also cropping may not be the whole answer, since there may need to be padding also. But a PS droplet which worked by manipulating the image Canvas could properly address that, both cropping and padding as necessary. You'd just need to make one such droplet for each different page size that the print service offers. And to call the relevant droplet in the postprocessing section of your export settings.

[Bob Somrak]

Yes, turning on all or most of the GUIDES section does help visualize what is going on so that is a great suggestion.  Using a secondary program such as PS is not necessary as this can be easily done in LrC 12.    I would think that Lr 5.7.1 could do this too but beings it is 7 version old it might not so it might have to be done with external programs.

[mitch28429832jb21]

Thanks to both of you for the continued thoughts on this.  Bob - I believe I've got all the same dialogs you mentioned.  At least I've been able to set Zoom to Fit, Cell Size, Paper Size, etc. - as well as turning on the guides.

Richard - What you're saying makes sense to me.  The DPI from the "fully cropped" scenario would indeed tie the scaling to a real-world size.  However, when I do the first part of the operation, cropping in Develop and then setting the Cell / Paper Size in Print, the DPI remains a user-settable field at 300.  There doesn't seem to be any calculated figure displayed - unless I should be looking elsewhere than the File Resolution under Print Job?  (Hard to see in the image below, but it's 300 DPI in the tiny font in the lower right corner.)

Also - apologies for the delayed replies.  I've also been wrestling with some color space issues.  For some reason, the images I export as jpg sRGB are printing much more desaturated than what I'm seeing in Lightroom.  At first, I figured that was simply the lack of a printer profile...  But weirdly, Photoshop displays them desaturated as well, even while all the other color-managed viewers I've tested match Lightroom.  (And this is with PS set to sRGB across the board, and an embedded sRGB profile in the file itself.)  So now, I'm not sure if it's just voodoo at the printing lab, or some fundamental mistake on my end.

But that's probably a topic for another thread.

[Bob Somrak]

The 300 File Resolution is the DPI used to calculate the size of file created from the "Print to JPG" operation from the "Custom File Dimension". There is no PPI or  DPI in the develop module, just pixel dimensions. Going back to your first scenario, as shown in my example, the DPI is 400 and the Custom File Dimension is 5x7 for the paper size you wanted.  The Printed JPG shows pixel dimensions of 2000x2800 which is the correct result.    If you crop to a custom Aspect Ratio of 4.25x6.25 it can be any pixel size.  Then place it in the Print photo CELL and it should automatically fill the cell or you may have to have "Rotate to Fit" selected.   300 or a little higher is a good number for a print that size.  Make it any number you want that is allowed by Lr.  This is all working fine on my end.  

If @TheDigitalDog is around, he is the resident expert and has some excellent links on printing color issues.