Problem with Black and White Conversion

[scottg48734967]

Windows 10.  Lighroom Classic 14.2

If I edit color tonal values for an image before converting to B&W, I'm finding that the converter is ignoring those edits.  Suppose I have an image with a blue sky and a blue lake and that I want to darken the blue in the sky, but not the blue in the lake prior to B&W conversion. I select the sky, select the blue color in the sky, and then turn the luminosity down to something significantly darker. Then I convert to B&W. The tonal changes to the blues in the sky do not appear in the converted image - the sky has the same gray tonal value as it would have if I had not made the mask at all.  This seems like a bug to me.  The B&W conversion should be using the image color tonal values in their final edited state when it does the conversion. As it is, it appears to be ignoring some edits.

Obviouly I could use the color picker to turn the blue luminosity down globally, but this will also darken the lake.  By making some local color edits prior to conversion, I can get around this limitation and get a better black and white conversion.

[JohanElzenga]

It's not a bug, it's a limitation of how Lightroom works. You edit like you would do it in Photoshop. In Photoshop you change the pixels when you edit them, so the order of the edits decides how things will look. Lightroom is a non-destructive editor however. The order of your edits is irrelevant, because editing in Lightroom means making a list of metadata. Lightroom decides in what order they will eventually be applied. And that order is: change to B&W first, then do the local edits.

[Rob_Cullen]

It must be specific to your system (so not a 'bug') as I have no problems with your workflow.

Masking (Brush, etc) Color tonal values remain when I set an image to B&W.    I can use Menu, (B&W) button, or keyboard [V] and the result is always successful.

I am interested to hear other suggestions to help an answer for you.

You could try a reset of the Preferences file- **Make a copy (or rename) the Preferences file before you reset so as to restore if reset not sduccessful.

PREFERENCES RESET (Lr Queen)

[JohanElzenga]

@Rob_Cullen It depends on your mask. If you mask is a color range mask or uses Point Color, then I believe what I explained applies. The B&W conversion takes place before the mask is applied, so color range or point color won't do anything. But a sky mask obviously remains a sky mask, so darkening the sky in a sky mask using Exposure works without a problem.

[JohanElzenga]

H'm, I stand corrected, at least on a part. I was typing this on my iPad, so I could not try it in Lightroom Classic, but when I try darkening the sky in Lightroom for iPad using a color range mask, then the effect does not disappear when I convert the image to B&W using a B&W profile (I'm sure profiles are applied first!) after I created that mask... I can't try point color however (that is not in Lightroom for iPad masking), and it sounds that might be what the OP has used (because he mentions 'luminosity') and that might not work for the reasons I explained. Can somebody try this?

[JohanElzenga]

OK, I had a chance to try it out, and I can confirm that Point Color in a mask does indeed behave like I predicted. If I create a sky mask, select the blue part of the sky using Point Color and then set Luminosity all the way down to darken it, then that effect gets lost if I click on the Black & White button at the top of the Basisc panel. I'm convinced this is because of what I explained about the editing pipeline in Lightroom. The OP has not come back to us, but I think this is what the OP also did.

[scottg48734967]

Yes: Sky select, then point color to select blue, turn down the blue luminosity, then convert to black and white. Result, luminosity adjustment of the blue is lost during the black and white conversion. The sky select part is not a necessary part of the sequence. As far as I can tell, all luminosity adjustments of specific colors with the Color Mixer are lost when the image is converted to black and white. I added the sky select piece in the description to illustrate a use case - local red filtering of the sky prior to black and white conversion since the Black and White Mix tool cannot be used for local adjustments of black and white images. The Black and White Mix Tool is global only. On a related subject, I posted an "IDEA" for an application feature wherein either the Color Mix Tool is added to the tool set available when masking B&W images (making it local editing tool too) or that the Point Color Tool (which is currently disabled when working with black and white images) be enabled for local luminosity adjustments based on a color hue selection with B&W images. The color picker would be the more powerful option for selective color filtering of an image, but might seem a bit strange in that the image displayed on the screen is black and white. Still, the color information for the B&W image is available in the base file. So, the underlying color hue selected with the point color tool in a B&W image could be displayed in the color spectrum chart that is a standard feature of the Color Mixer with color images. I think this would be quite useful improvement for editing B&W images with LR.

[GoldingD]

I'm finding that the converter is ignoring 

Can you be specific, what converter. With LrC v14.2 I can think of three ways

• The old B&W Treatment
• The new Adaptive B&W Profile
• A third party app (like DXO NIK Silver Efex)

[Rob_Cullen]

Thinkin about the reply from @GoldingD -

I have found a difference with 'converting' using Develop Presets-

I have "Style: B&W" presets that DO preserve masking edits to sky exposure.

And I have "Lightroom B&W Presets" (That I think might be old legacy presets!) that do NOT preserve the masking edits.

Anyhow I have no problems with keyboard [V] which is what I frequently use, and I cannot find a Profile that ignores the masking adjustments.

[richardplondon]

I have for years retained my photos in full colour mode, even when receiving a B&W treatment. I just desaturate all the photo's hues (HSL) with a preset. HSL luminance sliders now serve the same purpose as the B&W mode's 'mixer', but I also still have all the other hue related controls to call on.