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Severe Color Shifts from RAW in LRC and LR with Sigma 45 L-Mount on Mac

Explorer ,
Dec 07, 2023 Dec 07, 2023

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Importing the DNG vom Leica TL using Sigma 45 2.8 L-Mount provides in LRC and LR super servere colorshifts. Importing to other RAW converters does not have any issues with color shifts at all. LRC says, that the integrated profile got applied. But it seems that LRC and LR are not able to read correctly the integrated profile of that lens? Sample DNG Export fron LR attached here.

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Explorer ,
Dec 08, 2023 Dec 08, 2023

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Great! Thank you! Please see my note, that google photo has the issue too with the color shifts. Link some posts above.

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Explorer ,
Dec 17, 2023 Dec 17, 2023

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Adobe send me an mail, if I am fine with the solution here. Well, latest updates from PS and L(r)C do not fix it. So, topic please still unsolved so far.

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Explorer ,
Aug 05, 2024 Aug 05, 2024

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Hello Rikk, any feedback from Camera Raw engineering on this meanwhile. My recent tests all still show the issue. So no progress so far. Thank you Michael

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Community Expert ,
Dec 17, 2023 Dec 17, 2023

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This is one of the reasons why we really need the ability to turn off built-in lens profiles for all mirrorless cameras, not just a select few recent ones. Still can't understand why Adobe does not allow us to just do this in the interface instead of having to manually edit the raw file.

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Explorer ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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Here we go with LRc Export of DNG from Leica TL but this image using Sigma 35 2.0 .... In short: just the same unfixed issue... 

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Community Expert ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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Ow that is ugly looking indeed!

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Explorer ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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Upload of original DNG to google photo. Same issue. DNG is downloadable: https://photos.app.goo.gl/NrViJovzZvCVTNTF6

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Explorer ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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C1 export: fine

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Explorer ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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So, this is the second lens of this Sigma series not working with LRc. So far: 2.8 45 and 2.0 35 

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Community Expert ,
Jan 27, 2024 Jan 27, 2024

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quote

Upload of original DNG to google photo. Same issue. DNG is downloadable: https://photos.app.goo.gl/NrViJovzZvCVTNTF6


By @mpauliks

Wanted to try this myself but it will only download jpeg copies of it. I don't think google photos can be used to download raw this way if you are not the owner. 

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LEGEND ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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@Jao vdL, "This is one of the reasons why we really need the ability to turn off built-in lens profiles for all mirrorless cameras, not just a select few recent ones. Still can't understand why Adobe does not allow us to just do this in the interface instead of having to manually edit the raw file."

 

Five years ago, I posted the following in the old feedback forum:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Camera Raw Engineer Chris Castleberry has stated that Adobe obeys the wishes of Sony with respect to external lens profiles:
https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/disable-built-in-lens-profile?topic-reply-lis...

So it's a reasonable assumption that Adobe is also obeying the wishes of manufacturers with respect to embedded lens profiles. If that's true, people should be complaining to the manufacturers at least as loudly as to Adobe.  (In my opinion, both are equally negligent in ignoring the desires of their customers.)

The underlying dynamic is likely driven by Adobe's legal department, rather than a business or product decision for "currying favor" with camera manufacturers. In another context (reading capture-date time zones from metadata), an Adobe engineer indicated that Adobe's legal department believes that Adobe software should not, without the manufacturer's legal permission, read information from non-industry-standard, manufacturer-specific metadata fields (e.g. Makernotes and raw information). 

Thus, it appears that Adobe needs contractual permission from each manufacturer to read their raw files. This gives the manufacturers like Sony negotiating leverage with Adobe over what LR may do.

I don't know of other software vendors who have adopted Adobe's legal interpretation about non-standard, manufacturer-specific data fields in raw files. There's certainly a lot of software out there that reads all sorts of non-standard manufacturer-specific metadata.  I spent some time a couple years ago looking online to learn if this legal interpretation was used by other companies and couldn't find anything. In general, laws about "reverse engineering" are a complicated mess and vary by country (and even within the US). 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

In a much later bug report (which I can't find), Adobe employee Rikk Flohr explained that the manufacturers of newer cameras, not Adobe, decide which combinations of cameras/lenses can have their profiles disabled.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And in a recent post:

https://community.adobe.com/t5/lightroom-classic-ideas/p-allow-override-of-automatic-lens-correction... 

 

I speculated that the contracts between manufacturers and Adobe include information sharing about the raw formats, giving the manufacturers leverage in dictating to Adobe rhow embedded lens profiles should be handled.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

And in a follow-up to the five-year-old post (which is lost from my archives), I guessed that the cost of having Adobe's legal department revise dozens of form contracts with the manufacturers would swamp the trivial engineering cost of allowing the lens profiles of older cameras to be disabled.  Since the legal department reports to the CEO or CFO and not to the Creative Cloud business line, the legal costs would get charged to the Creative Cloud budget.

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Explorer ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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Hi John, thank you for sharing this insights! Anyway, meanwhile I am sure that my third Sigma third lens of this fantastic Sigma line will not work too (20 2.0) when using LR. Those are excellent lenses from Sigma, I love to use them! Especially with that small Leica! What is frustrating to me, why is C1 able to handle the Leica DNGs while LR is not? Ok, this is atleast a workaround. But please see for how long this topic is open here meanwhile.... I am getting a bit frustrated here about the not existing progress on this....

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LEGEND ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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"But please see for how long this topic is open here meanwhile.... I am getting a bit frustrated here about the not existing progress on this...."

 

The problem was first reported Dec 7, the week before LR 13.1 was released. LR generally releases every 8 weeks, so we might expect to see LR 13.2 (hopefully with a fix for this issue) around Feb 8.  Adobe almost never comments on what's in an upcoming release, so we won't know for sure until LR 13.2 is released, unfortunately.

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Explorer ,
Jan 26, 2024 Jan 26, 2024

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Hey cool! Thank you again John! Let´s stay optimistic 🙂

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Community Expert ,
Jan 27, 2024 Jan 27, 2024

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I know this explanation but unfortunately it is not true for most of the current slate of mirrorless cameras. Nikon for example couldn't care less if you lens correct their Z7 files or not. They even provide a switch in the raw file metadata (which Adobe strangely ignores even though it is able to apply all other camera settings). Adobe also explicitly said in an older thread requesting the switch for still sold but slightly older mirrorless cameras that the decision to not allow older versions of Nikon and Canon mirrorless to turn off lens correction was based on programmer bandwidth and priorities (they said they would need to go back and reprogram a bunch of stuff for this) and that they were only doing it for mirrorless cameras released after their update. Since so few people care or would even notice and they have more than enough to do to support newer cameras, I guess they stuck to that decision.

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LEGEND ,
Jan 27, 2024 Jan 27, 2024

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[This post contains formatting and embedded images that don't appear in email. View the post in your Web browser.]

 

"I know this explanation but unfortunately it is not true for most of the current slate of mirrorless cameras. Nikon for example couldn't care less if you lens correct their Z7 files or not. "

 

On 2/16/2021, Rikk Flohr stated that LR obeys Nikon's instructions not to disable the lens profiles of some recent camera/lens combinations, including for the Nikon Z 6II:

 

johnrellis_1-1706374335264.png

"Adobe also explicitly said in an older thread requesting the switch for still sold but slightly older mirrorless cameras that the decision to not allow older versions of Nikon and Canon mirrorless to turn off lens correction was based on programmer bandwidth and priorities"

 

It's too bad most of the content in the old feedback forum was discarded. I can't find that thread in my email my archives (but I can't find lots of things that I think should be there).

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Community Expert ,
Jan 27, 2024 Jan 27, 2024

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I can't find it either and indeed was on the old photoshop feedback forum but they were very clear it had nothing to do with camera maker wishes for these series of cameras (the first slate of Canon mirrorless and Nikon Z series) but a simple programmer priority issue. This came up when the update came out that finally allowed turning off built-in camera profiles but only did it for the II series for the Z series for example. They just said it was too much effort to go back and redo the stuff for the series I. The screenshotted answer from Rikk is inconsistent also as my Z7 indeed has the in-camera setting to enable or disable lens corrections on many of my lenses (all of the F mount lenses and some Z lenses). Lightroom ignores the flag completely and never allows you to turn off distortion corrections inconsistent with the answer quoted above. It will only do that for the only slightly updated ZII which has basically identical raw files except for the camera model. The only recourse is stripping the lens profile from the NEF files using exiftool. As Rikk says there in the second sentence, for some wide angle Nikon Z lenses indeed you cannot turn off distortion correction in camera but you can turn off vignetting correction on those. That setting again is ignored and Lightroom applies the vignetting correction regardless.

 

It's all a bit silly to argue as I have made my peace with it and for astrophotography (where this really matters as it causes ugly banding due to a numerical error in the way lens corrections are done) I just used to strip the lens profile. However, and this is a nice development, applying AI enhance denoise to those files in Lightroom completely gets rid of the banding too so it is no longer an issue for me and if I need a vignette I just artificially dial it in as it does not look any better or worse than natural vignette.

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Explorer ,
Feb 08, 2024 Feb 08, 2024

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Did open in latest PS Beta using ACR 16.1.1.1733 So far no change, issue not fixed 😞

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Explorer ,
Feb 25, 2024 Feb 25, 2024

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Quick check with latest releases.... So far, it still seems unchanged, but but but I stay optimistic 🙂 Have a nice weekend! Michael 

mpauliks_0-1708854944233.png

 

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Explorer ,
May 09, 2024 May 09, 2024

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Next check, still not working fine.... 😞 

mpauliks_0-1715249299696.png

 

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Explorer ,
Aug 03, 2024 Aug 03, 2024

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Another check with latest Photoshop Beta: still not fixed 😞

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Explorer ,
Oct 09, 2024 Oct 09, 2024

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In talks with Leica and Sigma on this again. However best would be, to have the option to disable integrated lens profile correction in LR Classic as a first step. Just as options. Forums are full with posts of folks asking for this.

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Explorer ,
Oct 09, 2024 Oct 09, 2024

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Sigma is checking with development in Japan. However due to the foundation of SL-Alliance they are not such optimistic for Leica T and Leica TL, as those bodies are too old. So, it is up to Adobe IMO to check, why LR is not interpreting the integrated lens profile of those correctly. However Sigma provided a list too, which Leica bodies are fine with their lensed in detail. So, T and TL are not listed at that one. https://www.sigma-global.com/en/support/camera_compatibility/?maker=leica

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