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P: Histogram behaviors are different from prior versions

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LEGEND ,
Jan 24, 2018 Jan 24, 2018

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I am experiencing problems with the histogram in 19.1.0. I am a mid-career fine art photographer by profession, and have been a PS user since Version 2. I am also a member of the Authors Guild, and write on photography for various publications. I have been purposely hanging back at PS 2015.5.1, as it has served me well. Yesterday, I decided enough, is enough, and installed 19.1.0.

This first histogram is at Cache Level 1 for the file values of a 36Kx24K pixel 16-bit grayscale file.

 

Please notice how there are "tails" (lines) out each side of the main body of data, indicating that there are small levels of data almost to the limits of range. For me, it is important to know about these tails exist so that I do not end up creating a clipped condition when applying a curve function. We use S-curve limiters to compact the tails without clipping.

Here is the exact same file at Cache Level 1 for the same 36Kx24K pixel 16-bit grayscale file, but this time in 19.1.0.

 

Please notice how there is no tail indicating data extending to the left, and rather a botched one going to the right. This is not helpful! You will also notice that the Mean and Standard Deviation values differ.

Further, it use to be nice to be able to take the cursor and scan across the histogram with a display of level and count showing up for whatever was under he cursor. This seems to have gone away in 2015.5, and is even worse in 19.1.0.

Thanks for your help.

Pete

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Adobe Employee , May 13, 2021 May 13, 2021
Hi,   We're happy to announce the release of Photoshop 22.4 which should include the fix for this issue. To update Photoshop to the latest version, you can check: https://helpx.adobe.com/creative-cloud/help/creative-cloud-updates.html   For information on other issues fixed with this update, please check: https://helpx.adobe.com/photoshop/kb/fixed-issues.html   Regards, Nikunj

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Enthusiast ,
Jan 24, 2018 Jan 24, 2018

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Hi Pete

I myself am rather confused about histograms in Photoshop, since they often don't seem to display the actual histogram, and often it seems that the histogram under a curves layer is different than the histogram displayed in the histogram panel. Perhaps someone who has looked into this more can comment.

But, in case this helps, you are aware of that you can use the option key (at least it's option on Macintosh) when you move the terminal point of a curve adjustment, and Photoshop will show you exactly which pixels (and, even better, which color channels) are bumping into 0 or 255? I find this to be tremendously useful, and I now just use the histogram to make a general assessment of a photo, and not to analyze which pixels are near or at clipping.

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Adobe Employee ,
Jan 24, 2018 Jan 24, 2018

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Pete-
Something looks a little weird. The 2 histograms have different Means and Standard Deviations, which would imply that they aren't quite the same image. Any chance the color profile is different in the second screen shot?

-Tom Attix

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LEGEND ,
Feb 01, 2018 Feb 01, 2018

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Hi Tom:

NO, that is the exact same image opened up in 2015.1, then again in the current version. Gray Gamma 2.2. I very carefully have checked the color management and calibrations are exactly the same for each. Try it yourself.I think you will be able to confirm it too.
That is why there is a bug. There should also be an OR function that show any value greater then Zero at a level has a minimum display of at least 1 on the scale so that the data tails can be seen. This is a HUGE issue. We need to be able to see the data tails at a level of 1 for anything other then zero.
Also, before 2015, the cursor would should what ever level it was over, and the statistics for that level. That was the most useful. I am not sure what is going on now, but it doesnt help the tool At least there should be a menu that allows the user to configure statistics as per all the previous versions. Pete

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LEGEND ,
May 04, 2020 May 04, 2020

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I have been using PhotoShop since Version 2.

For a while I froze at 2015.5 because that was the last version of PhotoShop in which the Histogram function displayed the data "tails" properly, as it had since the beginning of PhotoShop. Basically, it is a logical OR function that shows just above the baseline that there is greater then one pixel of data at a particular level. To demonstrate, the histogram in the Curves function does show like this, even in the current version.

But I finally rolled forward to PhotoShop 2020 only to find that the Histogram function is still not fixed! At least there should be a user option button that enables "show tails".

Then in 2020, if you have the Histogram function up and open the Curves function, the moment you do something on Curves, the histogram DISAPPEARS from the desktop. Boom! Gone. So you can't use the precision of the Histogram function in supporting Curves without constantly re-opening it.

And as per my post the other day, the Intersection Line in the Curves function does not show even when user select ON. It just doesn't work. This has been confirmed by another user.

This is basic stuff! These functions have worked properly since the beginning of time, and for the advanced PhotoShop user are extremely vital in use. How is it that these problems are still not fixed?????????!!!!!!! The Histogram and Curves functions are as basic as breathing in PS.

Pete

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Adobe Employee ,
May 04, 2020 May 04, 2020

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Can you post the source document you're using to generate the histogram?

Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 04, 2020 May 04, 2020

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Intersection Lines not visible in the Curves panel has been reported here:

https://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family/topics/intersection-line-in-curves-not-working

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LEGEND ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Hi Jeff:
What source document? You mean the photo? Any photo will show tails like this.
Sorry if I am missing your question---not trying to be an idiot.

Pete

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Pete, I'm not seeing the issue on my Windows 10 system running PS 21.1.2. In the below histogram there are tails showing. As *Jeffrey Tranberry requested please upload an example image file to a file sharing site and we can compare histogram views. Thank you.


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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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I just realized your image is 16 bit grayscale. Here's the same image with those settings.

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LEGEND ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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It sure isnt showing on the Mac. How about you folks upload a photo that I can download, and I will show you what I am seeing on my end. Monochrome please.

And yes, that is what I would be hoping to see. So this is good. We are getting to the problem. It should also be noted that the histogram in the Curves function DOES show the tails, while the main stand alone Histogram function does not.

Also, are you able to confirm that the histogram window disappears the moment the Curves function is opened or touched?

Thanks!

Pete

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Here's a 16-bit file: https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/0b69dc6d-9649-4c70-4bef-58523b1dd1c7

Mac:



  I'll add windows shortly.

Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Sorry. I'll make it greyscale. Hold please.

Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Source, grayscale 16-bit file: https://shared-assets.adobe.com/link/0b69dc6d-9649-4c70-4bef-58523b1dd1c7

Mac:



Win:


Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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"Also, are you able to confirm that the histogram window disappears the moment the Curves function is opened or touched?"

Using my file that shows the tails the main Histogram panel remains unaffected by changes to the Curves Adjustment Layer.

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Mac and Win Side by Side:


Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Community Professional ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Using Jeff's Upload_20200505-195720.tif file I see the tails and no issue using the Curves Adjustment Layer. Jeff's screenshots look different because it's using cached data ('!').




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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Mac CS6 side by side with Mac 2020


Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Let me do Cache Level 1 next

Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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LEGEND ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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I just pulled up a monochrome negative of size 15,254 X 10169 pixels, 16-bit monochrome.

The histogram below at Cache 1 is showing data between level 49 and 206. At those endpoints, the statistical probe is showing 0.10% at 49 and 99.98% at 206. The actual data using the same probe is going from level 19 (2 pixels) to 217 (10 pixels) and should be showing using a logical OR function so that you see the complete tail.

The Curves Function of the same image is showing the data tails doing to Level 23 and 212, so that is not exactly right either, but certainly better then showing 49 to 206.

OS 10.15.4
MacPro 2019 8-Core 96GB memory
PS 21.1.2

So what is missing, and has been since 2015.5, is the Logical OR function of showing ANY pixel count at a level, so that you can see the full extent of the tails. That way you can set the end points just outside of the tails, then use the Curves function to pull the tails in to the photo without making a hole by just clipping data.

This is a 155mp monochrome file. 0.01% of that is a 15KB hole. It does matter. And what you can't see, you can't fix. As it is, I have to run the dang probe along the histogram to find the invisible end points, the 0.01% point, and the 99.99% point.

And I just confirmed again that with my version and setup, the histogram disappears from the desktop the moment the Curves function is activated. If I pull up the histogram again, the moment I touch the curves function, it poooooooofs. So as is, I have to set up my Curves function, then pull up the Histogram function to check how the curve will work, but any revision to the curve will pooooooof the histogram function, and I have to pull it back up for any further checks.

I am sure the histogram stayed up in PS 2018, as did the interception line.

Catalina nightmares?

The last version with the Histogram working correctly was 2015.5 Mac OS.


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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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CS6 next to 2020 with Cache level 1

Looks nearly identical to me.

Senior Product Manager - Customer Advocacy - Digital Imaging

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Can you provide your source negative or use the file I've provided above so we're all looking at the same thing?

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Adobe Employee ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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"Also, are you able to confirm that the histogram window disappears the moment the Curves function is opened or touched?"

I've also not been able to reproduce the histogram disappear either. A screen recording might help us try and repro. There may be some setup differences that are causing this problem. I've tried panels docked, panels floating, app frame on/off, etc.

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LEGEND ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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OK, how do I do that for you? I have never done a screen recording before, so need pointed to some instructions for Mac OS. I would be happy to do so.

I am curious if you are on OS 10.15.4 with PS 21.1.2? I think I am rolled as far forward as is possible, and I wonder if there is a Catalina bug that is driving the disappearing histogram window---that would not surprise me.

I have a WACOM connected, and will make sure to disconnect it on next test to make sure that is not the issue. That too could be buggy from Catalina.

And have I illustrated my point about the tails function on the Histogram enough to understand? Let me know if I can be of further help. It really is critical to image-making to be able to see how far out those tails go, even if they are only showing at a few hundred pixels or less per level. 

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LEGEND ,
May 05, 2020 May 05, 2020

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Update: I do not have the WACOM tablet connected or the driver software installed on this computer yet, so that eliminates a side-show variable.

I reproduced the disappearing histogram problem once again. Touch the Curves function, and the histogram goes pooooooooooof!

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