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Can I use clone/stamp tool after rasterizing?

Advisor ,
May 31, 2018 May 31, 2018

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I wanted to use Camera Raw as a non-destructive filter so I converted the photo layer to a Smart Object.  I made my corrections and then decided I needed to use the Clone/Stamp tool to make some edits.  But when I tried to do so, I got a message saying the Smart Object had to be rasterized before proceeding, and Edit Contents would no longer be available.  I wan't sure what all this meant so I went ahead and though I was able to access the Clone/Stamp tool, my Smart Filter disappeared.  I went into History and moved back to before rasterizing to get my Smart Filter back.  Can I not make edits with the Clone/Stamp and other tools if I've created a Smart Filter for using Camera Raw non-destructively?  Thanks.

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Mentor , Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

The solution (for the stamp tool):

1) create a new layer above your smart object

2) switch to the clone stamp tool

3) set Sample to "All Layers"

Or

1) open the smart object

2) create a new layer above your content layer(s)

3) switch to the clone stamp tool

4) set Sample to "All Layers"

Clone stamp away. Your edits are done on a new layer, leaving the original image data alone. Only in the second case will any change to the live RAW filter propagate to the edits.

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Community Expert ,
May 31, 2018 May 31, 2018

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Correct Smart filters are added to smart object layers.  When you rasterize a smart object layer any added smart filters are applied to the rasterized layer which is a normal layer which fitelters can only be applied to to change the layers pixels. Smart Object layers pixels can not be changed.  Smart filters can be added to smart layers to apply their effects to the layers composite view. The Smart Object layers Pixels are not chabges so the filter setting can be changes at any time and reapplied should other filter be added. So the current smart filters setting are stored in the smart filter added to the smart object layer. When you rasterize a smart object layer the layers pixels are modified what you had was destroyed you no longer have a smart object layer.

Tools like clone stamp, paint brush,eraser, any tool that modifies  a layer's pixels can not be used on a smart object layer for the layers pixels can not be modified.

JJMack

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Advisor ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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Thank you.  So is the best practice to make any changes using clone stamp, paint brush or any other tool that modifies a layer's pixels first and be done with that, and then convert your layer to a Smart Object for use with Camera Raw as a smart filter to make exposure adjustments, etc. which are non-destructive?  Or is there any alternative to this where you can modify an image's pixels if needed using one of the aforementioned tools while still having access to non-destructive editing options for things like color balance, exposure, saturation etc.?

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Community Expert ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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bartonlew  wrote

Thank you.  So is the best practice to make any changes using clone stamp, paint brush or any other tool that modifies a layer's pixels first and be done with that, and then convert your layer to a Smart Object for use with Camera Raw as a smart filter to make exposure adjustments, etc. which are non-destructive?  Or is there any alternative to this where you can modify an image's pixels if needed using one of the aforementioned tools while still having access to non-destructive editing options for things like color balance, exposure, saturation etc.?

non-destructive smart filters are sort of non destructive.  They can be readjusted and work one the same image they did when attached to the smart object layer or reapplied after other smart fitters have been added in which case the image will be the same but the pixele may not be because other smart filters may have been applied.    Smart filters can have a stacking order.

If you had an image layer and clone stamped on it  or changed a pixel with any other tool you have done some destructive editing.  To do the same in a none destructive way you would first duplicate the image layer and make your destructive edits to duplicated layer.  It would hide the original image layer.   To get back to the original image all you need do is turn the visibility of the duplicate off.  You can then dupe the image again and make other medications. 

You can also have a Smart Object layer where the layers Object is an Image File like a RAW file. You had ACR Open an Object when you opened the RAW File through ACR.  You can create additional independent smart Object layers that object is the same RAW file.  Menu Layer>Smart Object Layer>New Smart Object Layer via Copy.   You can adjust these with ACR independently from each other by opening the smart object layer's object in ACR by double clicking on the layer smart object icon in the layer palette.  That will open ACR for the Layer Object.  You adjust the ACR setting and click OK in ACR and the layer RAW conversion is updated with different pixels. So you can have several different ACR conversion for a RAW file in your Document and  Blend them together to bring out more details.

JJMack

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Mentor ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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The solution (for the stamp tool):

1) create a new layer above your smart object

2) switch to the clone stamp tool

3) set Sample to "All Layers"

Or

1) open the smart object

2) create a new layer above your content layer(s)

3) switch to the clone stamp tool

4) set Sample to "All Layers"

Clone stamp away. Your edits are done on a new layer, leaving the original image data alone. Only in the second case will any change to the live RAW filter propagate to the edits.

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Community Expert ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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You first method is my preferred method and no smart object layer is required.  The point you make for the second method is good but to me its more like having a hidden layer you can only get at by opening the layers object and you need to remember that you added that layer to the object and my memory is not what it use to be.  For me its always easer to add additional empty layer and modify the empty layer.  They are in the layers palette and easy to discard.

JJMack

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Mentor ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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i agree, having to open the hidden layer in the smart object is indeed somewhat awkward. I wish Photoshop would be able to clone adjustment and filter layers: that would allow for any change to the original adjustment layer to cascade throughout. In this case the RAW filter clone could be re-used on the clone stamp layer.

PhotoLine allows for this, and it is very, very handy.

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Advisor ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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Thanks for that.  I'm somewhat new to Layers, so here's the question I have:  with regard to your first method, when I create a new Layer, it's blank (checkerboard).  (I made sure that Sample:  All Layers were selected.)  So am I actually supposed to be duplicating (not creating a new) Layer?  Else how do I use the Clone Stamp on that blank Layer that is now above my Smart Object?

Also, does it matter that I have an existing Layer above the new Layer I've created (so the order is from the bottom:  Smart Filter; Smart Object photo layer; new layer for working with clone stamp tool; 2nd pre-existing existing photo layer).

Many thanks.

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Advisor ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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I tried to do it just as you said and it worked.  Even though nothing appears on that new (blank) Layer I created above the Smart Object photo Layer, the Clone Tamp tool worked on it.  So I guess my main photo layer is being read but the changes are being applied to this blank Layer (?).  Anyway, I then went to use the Spot Healing Brush to correct some other things and it doesn't work there.  And I can't use the Spot Healing Brush on the Smart Object Layer either.  Can I use it somehow in my image, if so where, and what's the reason for this tool being treated differently?

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Mentor ,
Jun 01, 2018 Jun 01, 2018

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Working with layers allows you to edit in "stages" without altering the original image data. In your case the smart object cannot be edited directly without opening the content, and even that would be either quite destructive (altering the original) or adding layers to the smart object which makes for a rather awkward workflow (as JJMack pointed out) because you would have to open the smart object, make changes, save, switch to the 'master' document, review changes, etcetera.

Which is why it is preferable to add several blank layers on top of the smart object, and layer your edits.

Most of the photo editing tools are able to sample content from other layers, thus enabling this workflow tactic. By layering your edits, you will be able to try things out, build up edits in stages by layering them in additional blank layers, and if something doesn't work out you may delete that particular stage (layer) if required, and start anew in a new blank layer.

Basically layers are your best friends in a compositing workflow. They allow easy blending of elements in an existing photo, for example. Nothing is committed and everything (well, depending) remains editable and undo-able if you plan it right.

And yes, you are correct: when you create a new layer, it is empty and fully transparent. By working in that layer with the various tools set to "sample from all layers" the edits are managed on that new empty layer, and it allows you to edit even when working with a smart object. Not all tools sport this option, but the most important ones do.

The Spot Healing Brush DOES work: instead of a dropdown menu you must check the checkbox "Sample All Layers". Same for the Content Aware Move tool. The clone tool also includes the option to sample from the current and below layers too, in case you need to limit the sampling from one layer only.

As far as layering goes: it depends on what you want/require. At times you may not want to sample from certain layers, and only sample from a couple specific ones. In that case you first hide the unwanted layers (eye icon), do your cloning, and then turn them back on.

But no matter what, you CANNOT make direct edits to a smart object layer. Only indirect ones using filters and adjustment layers.

Duplicating the smart object layer won't help, because it will just reference the same content, and remain a smart object. Rasterizing a smart object will convert it to an editable bitmap layer, but you will lose any live effects and/or layering in the smart object. Try to avoid this if possible, and keep things non-destructive.

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Advisor ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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Very thorough and clear explanation of a complex subject.  Thank you.

One final question:  I notice that after adding the Smart Object and Layer to my document, things take a lot longer to process.  I am on a 6 yr old PC with only 60 GB of free disk space (628 GB used space).  I upgraded my RAM to 16 GB but presumably my processor is not up to current specs.  Would the processing time of my work using these features increase substantially if I were on a newer machine, do you know?  Thank you.

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Community Expert ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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All smart object layers are not created the same was all have and associated transform, and an object and pixels rendered for the layers content.  Smart Object layers have overhead and sizes can vary greatly.

If I edit a small web image and Place embed in one of my RAW images it will be scaled to fit the webs size canvas.  The  object embedded RAW file may be 20MB,  The number of pixels rendered for the layer will be 16MP and the associated transform will scale that to fit on the web size canvas.

JJMack

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Mentor ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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bartonlew​ Historically smart objects were originally added to allow for non-destructive filters and transformations and yet still offer good performance. The content of a smart object is "frozen", and is only processed when the user opens the content and edits it. After saving and closing the smart object, a static rendered bitmap is then all Photoshop needs to display.

At the time when smart object were introduced, the developers had tested out the performance of real-time processed live filters, and it turned out to be too slow to work with (long time ago - nowadays it would depend on the particular type of filter and combination of effects). That is why they decided on implementing the smart objects approach.

Now, as for your final question: Having a number of smart objects with live effects attached will still slow down Photoshop at some point. You might try embedding those smart objects with live effects in a new smart object to mitigate these slowdowns, but the trouble was (still is to an extent) with Photoshop is that it doesn't make good use of multiple threads on your CPU, although the devs started to implement multi core performance scaling in the past year (or so?).

But as JJMack writes: it wholly depends on the smart object content overhead. A high megapixel photo at 16bit is going to hit your CPU way more compared to a simple low resolution web graphic.

Only upgrade your hardware if you feel it is getting in the way of getting thing done quickly. It depends on your work. And often investing money in a good screen (or two) may be a much better workflow enhancer than a new computers.

In your case you seem to have disk space issues, though. Is your main system disk a solid state drive? If not, the first thing you should do is upgrading your machine with a speedy SSD and move your OS and Adobe apps to it. Photoshop also loves SSDs, and you will notice a considerable boost in overall system performance. What are your current system specs?

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Advisor ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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Intel Core i3-3120M @ 2.50GHz

16.0 GB (15.9 GB usable)

64-bit OS, x64-based processor

It's also true that my PSB is quite large:  25,338 x 8,316 px.   It's a panorama intended as a large print.

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Mentor ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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That's quite big indeed. One layer would take up almost 1GB of memory by itself, and it would slow down certain things quite a bit. I'd prefer to have at least 32GB for more complex edits in such cases, but it really depends on your requirements. Just a couple of layers with clone stamp edits wouldn't be that bad. Still, any image adjustments that require more processing would take longer on your system. Well, most systems, since it is a lot of data to process.

Do you have a SSD in your system, or a traditional mechanical hard drive? With a file like yours it would make quite a difference when Photoshop is swapping data on the drive.

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Advisor ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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I don't have an SSD, so doesn't that mean by definition I have a traditional mechanical drive?  Or maybe you were asking if I have an additional, external one, which I do.  I offload all of my raw files there after creating my panoramas and PSB files, which I work on in Photoshop on my computer hard drive.  Perhaps I should try working on those files on the external 1TB hard drive.  I don't know if that would make a difference.  I have a feeling I should really upgrade to a dual drive system which I think means purchasing a new computer. 

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Community Expert ,
Jun 02, 2018 Jun 02, 2018

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I just wanted to mention something I don't think has been covered and that is Camera Raw and Camera Raw filter has a Spot Removal tool that both heals and clones.

Repair images with the Enhanced Spot Removal tool in Adobe Camera Raw

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