Colors differ from ACR to Bridge

[Eigil Skovgaard]

An image edited in the ProPhotoRGB colorspace in ACR suddenly looks desaturated in Bridge. It's a pain in a lower body part, as I use Bridge as a show room. 'Preserve embedded color profile' is on in Preferences, so I don't understand this discrepancy.
The only difference from normal procedure is - that the edited DNG file is an output from DxO PureRAW 2 (based on an ARW file). The problem doesn't exist - or is less prominent with the ARW files edited directly in ACR.

Please open attacehed examples.

Best,

Eigil Skovgaard

[D Fosse]

A plugin has its own color management independent from Photoshop. So it sounds like a DxO problem.

[Eigil Skovgaard]

You can call it a plug-in, but is it? The ARW file has been loaded into a standalone DxO software, and noise has been removed. The output DNG is placed in the Bridge managed repository from which it was loaded via Bridge into ACR as a normal raw file. The editing colorspace in ACR was ProPhotoRGB, which the image from ACR shows. The desaturation occurs when the image is opened in Bridge.

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Maybe others in the forum share my opinion that Bridge should be able to read all DNGs from serious producers on the market - to keep Adobe leading. No reason to throw loyal customers in the arms of competitors by not keeping e.g. Bridge compatible with the changes in the market.

[D Fosse]

It's not as simple as that.

Does DxO output a rendered RGB file, or is it still mosaic raw data? That's a very significant difference. DNG is just a wrapper; it can contain both. If the former, does DxO correctly embed a color profile, and which one?

What profile does Bridge report? What profile does Photoshop report when opened from ACR?

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Bridge: Color Mode -> RGB, Color Profile -> Untagged.

Photoshop: ProPhoto RGB (16bpc).

But the rendition in Photoshop seems to be identical with the de-saturated look in Bridge.

Then it seems that ACR alone is showing a more saturated image.

[D Fosse]

Not being familiar with DxO or PureRAW, I had to google it, and found this:

"DxO’s exclusive demosaicing, denoising, and lens correction technology."

So that means it's sending out a demosaiced RGB file, not strictly a raw file.

It should be a red flag that this only happens with DxO-processed files, wouldn't you agree? Keep in mind that as far as the DNG specification is concerned, Adobe is the industry standard. The specification is open and public, but it's developed by Adobe.

I'm not saying there aren't bugs in ACR or Bridge, god knows there are, but it just seems to me much more likely that DxO got it wrong this time.

[Eigil Skovgaard]

The confusing part is, that Topaz Labs with their Photo AI, also produces a DNG file from an input raw file, quite a bit larger than the one from DxO. In both cases I refer to the standalone modules which accept native raw files. But I have NOT experienced a colorshift when editing such Photo AI DNGs in ACR. In these cases the colors in Bridge and Photoshop matches the colors in ACR.
So, the enhanced message ".. exclusive demosaicing, denoising, and lens correction technology" is valid for Topaz DNGs too, and represents a rather well know workflow for Adobe users. These "DNG" files are obviously more TIF than DNG, but are in both cases accepted by Adobe Lightroom and ACR as raw files.

Apparently DxO do something different, and I have of course presented the problem to their help desk too.

Meanwhile I would like to know if other Adobe subscribers have experienced the same problem - it could be specific for ARW files (Sony).

[TheDigitalDog]

I've got Dx0 PureRaw. It outputs (can output) a linear DNG or a JPEG. The JPEG I got from it was in Adobe RGB (1998).

Yes, it is sending out a demosaiced RGB file, not strictly a raw file.

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Hi thedigitaldog,

Thanks for the info. I work with raw files exclusively in this part of the workflow. Jpegs are only used for output to the web. But maybe you are saying that I get a jpeg back in both cases? I think it's a tif in a dng container.

[TheDigitalDog]

Hi thedigitaldog,

Thanks for the info. I work with raw files exclusively in this part of the workflow. Jpegs are only used for output to the web. But maybe you are saying that I get a jpeg back in both cases? I think it's a tif in a dng container.

By @Eigil Skovgaard

Again, you have two options for Dx0 PureRaw; JPEG or Linear DNG. A linear DNG isn't a TIFF. Nor is it fully raw data. 

http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/dng/linear.htm

Again, at least on this side, the JPEGs I get from Dx0 are in Adobe RGB (1998).

Again, on this side, Linear DNGs from it open in Adobe Camera Raw as they should and have no color space at this point. They must be rendered fully from Linear DNG and then an RGB Working Space (sRGB, ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB (1998) etc) are encoded. 

I see no disconnect in the color previews from Bridge to Adobe Camera Raw. 

[Per Berntsen]

Bridge: Color Mode -> RGB, Color Profile -> Untagged.

Photoshop: ProPhoto RGB (16bpc).

But the rendition in Photoshop seems to be identical with the de-saturated look in Bridge.

Then it seems that ACR alone is showing a more saturated image.

By @Eigil Skovgaard

It appears that DxO does not embed the profile, since Bridge reports the files as untagged.

The desaturation you're seeing is typical for untagged ProPhoto files.

If you now open the file in Photoshop via ACR, the profile you have chosen in ACR preferences > Workflow > Color space will be embedded. I assume you have chosen ProPhoto.

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Hi Per,

Yes, when I opened the DxO DNG file in Photoshop from ACR, the "ProPhoto RGB (16 bps)" color space was detected, but the de-saturation was the same as when opened in Bridge - which is confusing (imho).

[TheDigitalDog]

Bridge: Color Mode -> RGB, Color Profile -> Untagged.

Photoshop: ProPhoto RGB (16bpc).

By @Eigil Skovgaard

Bridge IS correct. A Linear DNG has no color profile as explained and in this case, yet a differing Dx0 Linear DNG:

Photoshop is also correct IF in Adobe Camera Raw you set your workflow  preferences to encode the DNG into ProPhoto RGB.

[TheDigitalDog]

Maybe others in the forum share my opinion that Bridge should be able to read all DNGs from serious producers on the market - to keep Adobe leading. No reason to throw loyal customers in the arms of competitors by not keeping e.g. Bridge compatible with the changes in the market.

By @Eigil Skovgaard

In the latest version of Bridge (which I rarely use), when I use Bridge to open a DxO Linear DNG, it opens as it should in Adobe Camera Raw. 

The preview of the DxO DNG matches exactly what I see in Adobe Camera Raw. 

At this point, the image isn't in any color space; it must be fully rendered, and then, depending on the Adobe Camera Raw workspace options for color space (and bit depth etc), it 'opens' in Photoshop. 

[Eigil Skovgaard]

That's the problem - what you show is not happening between "my" Bridge and ACR - as explanined above - the desaturation showed in ACR disappears in Bridge and Photoshop - apparently because the ProPhoto RGB color space has not been tagged in the DxO DNG file. Which brand of raw file did you use for the example with the dog?

[Eigil Skovgaard]

It should be "the saturation showed in ACR disappears ..."

[TheDigitalDog]

That's the problem - what you show is not happening between "my" Bridge and ACR - as explanined above - the desaturation showed in ACR disappears in Bridge and Photoshop - apparently because the ProPhoto RGB color space has not been tagged in the DxO DNG file. Which brand of raw file did you use for the example with the dog?

By @Eigil Skovgaard

Again! There is NO color space for the Dx0 DNG. This isn't a problem whatsoever. Raws and linear raws have no defined color space. That ONLY takes place at rendering from raw, or linear raw (DNG) within Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom Classic based on what the user selects for this encoding. 

The previews you see in Bridge, Adobe Camera Raw etc, from a raw or linear DNG is an embedded JPEG that the product creates based on proprietary raw processing so you can see the image itself. Otherwise, this is what raw looks like without such a preview:

This absolutely isn't a tagged or untagged issue with Dx0 DNGs. 

As to why your previews in Bridge or elsewhere are off, we can go there ( Disable GPU in each product and test, create a new display profile which may be corrupted). But the facts are this: DNGs containing raw or linear raw have no color space and, as shown, appear untagged due to this fact. 

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Interesting theoretic lesson. It doesn't explain the different appearance between DNGs from Topaz Photo AI (without any visible saturation discrepancy) vs. DNGs from DxO (with the discrepancy). The basic problem is, that it becomes difficult to valuate images in Bridge, if the displayed Jpeg doesn't match the look in ACR.

[TheDigitalDog]

Interesting theoretic lesson. It doesn't explain the different appearance between DNGs from Topaz Photo AI (without any visible saturation discrepancy) vs. DNGs from DxO (with the discrepancy). The basic problem is, that it becomes difficult to valuate images in Bridge, if the displayed Jpeg doesn't match the look in ACR.

By @Eigil Skovgaard

First off, there isn't any discrepancy (on this end) between ACRs previews and Bridges with Dx0 DNG or any DNGs or raws.  They both preview the embedded JPEG preview. Discrepancy on your end may again be due to the possible issues I've outlined earlier. 

Bridge uses sRGB previews. If you view a rendered image that has a wider color gamut and colors that exceed sRGB on a wide gamut display, there are slight differences. This is a Bridge Preview' issue,' and you can file a feature request on the Bridge forum that they consider creating those previews in something wider than sRGB (as Lightroom Classic does). 

Yes, it is difficult to evaluate images in Bridge due to this small gamut preview. At this time, there isn't anything you can do but ask the team to consider a wider gamut preview archatecture.  

I'm happy to download anything you provide via Dropbox. 

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Won't be necessary to show you the files, you forced me to make a comparative test that confirmed your point.
What puzzles me though ís, that I haven't observed this shift in color between ACR and Bridge to the same extend earlier - and we are talking about several years. Could it be, that I have used a linear, very neutral, camera specific curve in ACR for this particular image - and have been pulling more color out of the space to get a natural look while keeping the contrast relatively low? I am probably babling, just brain storming here.
If Adobe haven't made that upgrade yet it's probably because it's considered unneccessary, but next time they ask me for "whishes" I'll ask for a 1:1 color rendition.

[TheDigitalDog]

One other item to note (and again, I'm not a Bridge user nor find it very useful but heck, it's free). 

The previews appear to be rendered in sRGB. 

I'm on a wide gamut display; maybe you are too. 

Here's ProPhoto RGB image previewed in Photoshop, correctly of course, next to Bridge. 

When I soft proof the ProPhoto RGB image in Photoshop to sRGB, it matches Bridge. 

In conclusion, Bridge isn't designed for viewing the full color gamut of whatever it is displayed outside sRGB. 

At least in Lightroom Classic, all previews outside Develop use a JPEG preview in Adobe RGB (1998). 

Bridge, not so much. 

But this has nothing to do with Dx0 or tagged rendered images. It appears to be a preview limitation of Bridge.

Previews = sRGB no matter the original image color space. 

PS left, Bridge right

Note: the screen captures above don't show here the full effects of the differences because everything is funneled into sRGB to post here. You can download a TIFF in my wide gamut display color space and open it in Photoshop, and the differences are now much more visible. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bv2dxgf4i8oppl0/PSvsBridge.tiff?dl=0

[Eigil Skovgaard]

I would like to send you a DxO DNG provoking the saturation discreapancy - and a Topaz DNG showing very alike color rendering in ACR and Bridge. If it can help, I'll put the files in my dropbox and place a link here?

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Oh, I found out that there's no difference in the way DxO and Topaz shift colors from ACR to Bridge with the same settings in the same image.

So, Bridge is the limitation. I like ACR - which browser would be more reliable?

I am not wild with the idea of installing Lightroom with all the stuff I don't need.

[Eigil Skovgaard]

Won't be necessary to show you the files, you forced me to make a comparative test that confirmed your point.
What puzzles me though ís, that I haven't observed this shift in color between ACR and Bridge to the same extend earlier - and we are talking about several years. Could it be, that I have used a linear, very neutral, camera specific curve in ACR for this particular image - and have been pulling more color out of the space to get a natural look while keeping the contrast relatively low? I am probably babling, just brain storming here.
If Adobe haven't made that upgrade yet it's probably because it's considered unneccessary, but next time they ask me for "whishes" I'll ask for a 1:1 color rendition.