CS5 Color Space and Epson P400 on Windows 11

[Randy Triplett]

I need a refresher course. I am printing photographs from CS5 to an Epson Surecolor P400 on Ilford Galerie paper and my prints are dark. I know CS5 is old, but I bought it years ago and that's what I have. 

I just don't understand whether to use the embedded working space, to let Photoshop or the printer handle color, or to choose the printer profile or the paper's profile .icc

I know these are basic questions but I have never had a clear understanding of which way to go and every tutorial seems to say conflicting things. 

Are there simple answers somewhere or good tutorials I can use? My monitors are set up well and my colors are good, but dark. I can get an excellent print, but I waste paper in the process. 

Help? 

 

[Per Berntsen]

If you get a dialog about the embedded profile not matching the working space when opening an image, choose the embedded profile. The profile doesn't have to be the same as the working space, which is a fallback if the image is untagged (does not have an embedded profile).

To stop this dialog from appearing, go to Edit > Color settings, and set Color management policies up like in the screenshot below, which is from CS6.

Make sure that Ask when opening is unchecked for Profile mismatches.

The recommended procedure for printing is to let Photoshop manage colors, which requires color management in the printer driver to be turned off. Everything seems to be set up correctly in your screenshot, but it seems that you have converted the image to Epson sRGB. There is no need to do this, just leave the image in whatever color space it had initially. Also make sure that you're using the recommended (by Ilford) paper setting in the printer driver, and that

you are using the correct printing profile for the paper/printer combination you're using.

If printed colors are correct, but the print is too dark, your monitor is most likely too bright.

Adjust the brightness to match the print.

[Randy Triplett]

Thanks for your reply. My color profile for this particular image was Epson sRGB because it was from a scan from an Epson V600 scanner. I did not correct the mismatch. I remain unsure about adjusting my monitor settings as even holding the original up to the monitor looks nearly identical, and using auto color and level adjustments on the image in Photoshop on this scanned image still renders dark prints. 

I see that our color settings are only slightly different. Does this suggest anything to you?

 

[Per Berntsen]

Your color settings are fine.

But you will of course have to re-edit your images after decreasing monitor brightness.

They will now be too dark, and you have to brighten them.

Instead of using Auto color and levels, I suggest using adjustment layers, or use the Camera raw filter on a copy of the background layer as a smart object – especially if you have scanned in 8-bit, and also if your scans are jpgs.

The jpg format is not intended for editing – it's a final format. Every time you save the image, the quality will be reduced because of the aggressive and destructive compression. If you do lots of edits and saves on a jpg, it will begin to disintegrate, and you may end up with unacceptable quality.

For best results, scan 16-bit tiffs. When you have finished editing, convert a copy of the file to 8-bit for printing.

[Randy Triplett]

I only suggest that I have used auto adjustments for color and levels as these adjustments would be independent of anything my monitor is displaying. In fact using those auto levels doesn't change the levels in any substantial way. Surely if I use auto levels and the image looks great on my monitor, and my prints are still dark, there is something else amiss.

I do take your point that .jpg isn't the best for editing and I will try another file type, but I still don't understand how these changes would affect my printer's output insofar as printing too dark. 

But I will perform some more experiments. 

Thanks

[D Fosse]

Per already said this: if your prints are too dark, your monitor is too bright.

Most monitors out of the box are much too bright and need to be dialed down considerably for print work.

Monitor white should be a visual match to paper white. The emphasis is on visual match. That takes into consideration the print viewing light, the ambient working light, and the application interface. They all affect your perception.

What are your calibration targets for white point? In most "normal" circumstances, a monitor white point of about 100-120 cd/m² is a good starting point. But again - it's purely visual. If it looks right, it is right.

Ideally, if your calibrator supports it, you should do the same for black point. Here the match is to max ink for the paper you're using. You might end up with somewhere between 0.3 and 0.8 cd/m² here.

With these two endpoints fixed, the rest will fall into place by itself. Then you know that what you see is what you get. You will sometimes hear that "screen and print can never match" - but that's not correct. Put in a little effort in the calibration targets, and you can get a near perfect match.

The basic principle is that you can't adjust the print to the screen. The paper color is fixed and the ink densities are fixed. But you can adjust your monitor to a print.

[Per Berntsen · Accepted solution]

I only suggest that I have used auto adjustments for color and levels as these adjustments would be independent of anything my monitor is displaying. In fact using those auto levels doesn't change the levels in any substantial way.

By @Randy Triplett

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but any adjustments you do are baked into the image – the pixels are changed permanently. So the adjustments are not independent of what you see on the monitor.

If using Auto levels doesn't change the image, it means that there is nothing to adjust, the image already conforms with the Auto levels default settings.

I do take your point that .jpg isn't the best for editing and I will try another file type, but I still don't understand how these changes would affect my printer's output insofar as printing too dark. 

Using a different file type will not make the prints brighter – this is about image quality.

Jpg is the worst possible format to use for editing.

If you want brighter prints, you have to reduce monitor brightness, and then re-edit your images.

[Randy Triplett]

Thanks again. I know that the file type doesn't matter for color matching. I only showed that particular image to show you my print settings, not that it is typical of what I'm doing. 

And my only point about using auto adjustments was that if I ask Photoshop to set white point and black point and mid point, Photoshop does so, and does not take into account whether my monitor is too light or dark. 

But all these points are really beside the point. You have confirmed for me that my print settings are essentially correct, so I will take your advice and adjust my monitors. 

Much appreciated.  

[davescm · Accepted solution]

'I only suggest that I have used auto adjustments for color and levels as these adjustments would be independent of anything my monitor is displaying.'

The auto adjustments may give a spread of values from dark to light and avoid you compressing everything at the dark , or light, end of the scale. But if you expect your print to match what you see on your monitor then, as D Fosse and Per Bernsten have already said, if your monitor is set up so that the white is too bright then your prints are always going to look darker in comparison even if the image values are well adjusted.

There are a few steps along the way to that match.

1. Your monitor, ideally it should be calibrated and profiled with a hardware device. But whether that is the case or not, as stated in the earlier posts, the white should be close in brightness to a sheet of your printer paper under normal viewing lighting. At first you may feel that your monitor looks too dim when you do this. But your eyes will quickly adjust to that and it is well worth it to ensure that your prints become predictable.

2. The document should have a colour profile which it sounds like yours does. That does not have to match the Photoshop default which is just there for when you start a new empty document with File - New.

3. When printing you should use the printer profile that matches the Printer, Ink and Media used when the profile is made. So that means, in Photoshop's print dialogue, set 'Photoshop manages colours' and choose the appropriate printer profile for your printer and paper. In the Epson printer driver (accessed through Photoshop's 'printer settings' ) ensure the correct media is chosen and ensure Colour Management is set to 'Off' in that Epson driver - that is important as you do not want to have the colours adjusted twice).

Dave

[Randy Triplett]

Thanks very much. 👍