Editing LR Classic CC images in PS result in different appearances

[wayneh92496952]

I must have a setting that is off in PS. I am using the latest software for LR CC Classic and PS. My work is to open an image in LR and then edit it in PS (curves, spot removal, hue/saturation, contrast, etc.). I use Camera Raw to edit. After I am satisfied with the "improved" appearance I hit Save and return to LR Classic. But what appears in LR Classic is a distinctly different appearance: often with increase Vibrance and saturation, more contrast, more Clarity, more Texture. The image is much harsher and not what I had done in PS. Is there an issue in LR or in PS that I have a setting off in an incorrect way? In PhotoShop the Color Picker is Adobe. 

[D Fosse]

You need to show a side by side screenshot.

But one contradictory piece of information to clear up first:

"open an image in LR and then edit it in PS (...) I use Camera Raw to edit"

You never see the ACR interface when you "edit in Photoshop" from Lightroom. You do all the adjustments in Lightroom. So what exactly are you doing? Are you opening as smart object and then re-editing that? Please be specific.

[D Fosse]

Just to establish the baseline: all color managed applications (PS/Lr) will always display identically, as long as everything is working as it should. If there is a difference, viewing the very same file, the most likely cause is a defective/corrupt/wrong monitor profile, which can affect them differently.

Lightroom does not support layers or smart objects. In such a file, what Lightroom works with is a flattened composite layer that Photoshop inserts in the layer stack. Sometimes there can be a problem with this composite.

[wayneh92496952]

Many thanks for your time and input. I am at work but will try to provide some images this evening. 

To answer your question as to what my "process" is editing or altering an image, here is an example:

1. In LR Classic I will view the thumbnail and use Develope Module to make some minor adjustments (reduce Highlighting, Geometric Auto adjustment, etc.).

2. Then I select to "edit in Photoshop". I duplicate the layer. Then I will clean up the image with Spot Healing Brush tool and maybe some Cloning tool. I may then add an Adjustment layer to AutoTone or AutoColor. 

3. Then I use Create New Adjustment layer and use Curves to alter highlights and shadows and maybe darken the image. I may make another Adjustment layer and fiddle with hue/saturation

4. Then I may or may not use Camera Raw to add vignette or some alteration. Then I click OK and am back to PS image. I do NOT flatten the image. The image is saved as a PSD extension. 

5. Then I Save the image to my computer where my LR photos are stored.

6. When I go back to Lightroom a new image appears replacing the LR initial image (unless I saved the PSD image to the computer but renamed it. Then I go to LR and Sync the folder that I saved the newly renamed PSAS image and import it).

7. But that new PS image does not look like the PS image that I had saved in PS. It tends to be much harsher. More vibrant. More contrast and saturation. 

I suspect I am doing something wrong. Maybe I should be saving the PS image with a new name to preserve the layers but then flatten the image and save back to LR replacing the original? That way I would have two images. 

In any event, can LR handle unflattened PSD images in its catalogue? Or is that thumbnail representing the PSD image on the computer with its layers but only displays some of the layers but not others that were added in PS?

Thanks

Wayne

[D Fosse]

OK, thanks. So you are using the ACR filter, not the full ACR raw processor in any capacity. That clears it up.

Then there's no reason Lightroom and Photoshop should not display the file absolutely identically. In other words something in the color management chain is broken, and my first guess would be the monitor profile. But it's necessary to see the screenshot before going further. There are a few other (less likely) possibilities too.

[wayneh92496952]

OK here you go. Two screen shots of images. The softer photo comes from PS after editing. It is saved on Creative Cloud. I then imported it into LR Classic CC.PhotoshopLR import

[D Fosse]

OK. I see you tagged your original post with "Mac", so that rules out the usual suspect on Windows - broken monitor profiles from the display manufacturers, distributed through Windows Update.

But it still looks very much like a monitor profile problem. This can often affect applications differently. A "marginal" profile can work in one application, and break in another.

Are you using a calibrator, and if so, which one? If you are, make sure it's making version 2 and matrix-based profiles. Not version 4 and/or table-based (LUT). The latter are known to be problematic in some situations.

The difference between these two images is mainly in the black and white clipping points. In particular, the Lightroom version is heavily clipped in the high end (which as a side effect increases saturation along with contrast). But there is also channel-specific clipping in the low end. That's a fairly typical smoking gun for a bad monitor profile.

An alternative explanation, and also answering your question above: No, Lightroom can not work with layered files. But Photoshop also inserts a flattened composite version in the file. Lightroom extracts this flattened version and works with that. However, the compositing engine in Photoshop has recently been rewritten and sent to the GPU to perform, and this has been a bit buggy for some users, probably due to driver bugs. To get around that, check "legacy compositing" in Photoshop and save out a new file.

[wayneh92496952]

I am using an iMacPro 2018 and a MacBookPro 2018 computer. I have attached the System Preferences>Display>Calibration settings I am using. I have also attached some settings which I thought you might like to assess and see if something is not correct. Many many thanks for helping. Given the clipping issues above should I not do any clipping in LR but only in Camera Raw Filter in Photoshop if I am intending on doing some Photoshop editing? Or alternatively, is there a better pattern of editing, saving, importing, etc that I should do that might avoid these discrepancies?

[D Fosse]

So you are not using a calibrator. The one built into the operating system doesn't count. I was thinking of an i1Display, ColorMunki, Spyder, NEC Spectraview, Eizo Colornavigator and so on.

You should get one in any case, it's the only way to have full control over the monitor profiles, which is an absolutely critical component in the Photoshop ecosystem. Maybe your current "calibrated" profile is the problem. Try the default profile.

Just to see if we can get anywhere to narrow it down, also try a few other things:

• turn on "legacy compositing" and save out a new file (as described above).
• set Lightroom to Adobe RGB under external editing. This will be preserved by Photoshop. ProPhoto can be more vulnerable to small problems because of the huge gamut.
• turn off "use graphics processor" in Lightroom.

One thing that has been nagging me a bit, is that this looks like a reproduction of an old transparency. This is a raw file from a camera, right? Not a scanned RGB file or something? Because if it was, it might have some strange embedded profile out of the scanner. These nonstandard profiles can cause a lot of trouble.

[wayneh92496952]

These are old scanned images on a Canon flatbed scanner. I am creating an iMovie for a Christmas present of our wedding from 40 years ago. These would be jpg images, not RAW. Did not think about that issue. 

[D Fosse]

That changes things a bit. An RGB file should already have an embedded profile. Or it might not, in which case all bets are off.

The first thing I would do is to check what the embedded profile is, and then convert it in Photoshop to Adobe RGB. Save out the resulting file as 16 bit TIFF or PSD. You don't want to work with jpegs. It's a destructive file format with a lot of limitations. You can save out final jpegs at the end if that's what you need, but don't work with jpeg.

Also, even if you like the Lightroom adjustment controls, there's no particular reason to do it in Lightroom. You get exactly the same result using the ACR filter in Photoshop. But that's probably a matter of taste.

My own philosophy is to use Lightroom for raw files, and Photoshop for RGB files.