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Here's an interesting yet gross tech adaptation moment I did not see comoing.
I feel utterly violated.
Upon export of an image I just completed to send off I am being prompted that a content credential is being applied because generative AI was used.
And this is Adobe's to watermark in my image metadata how?
That is the first problem. [cursing removed] with watermarking my images. If Adobe wants to watermark my images, they can pay the subscription. Until then, this has ethical implications that transcend the nature of our relationship.
The second problem is: THERE IS NO GENERATIVE AI in MY IMAGE.
I need first to be clear that even if there were, Adobe has no business force tagging creations I have made with the tools I pay for with information I do not want included.
Among dozens of other concerns moral and ethical, there's the challenge that I face now; Adobe is playing content creation police and they are issuing a ticket for Ai when there is none and I CANNOT OVERRIDE IT.
Yes Content Credentials are turned off. Doesn't Matter. Adobe has decided that I used AI and that they have an ethical obligation to informing others that view my image.
I don't think it's any of their flipping business. I do think they are best to let that be decided by the artist and the artistic community. I do think they better get it freaking right in the first place if they want to argue why they should be the Content Credential Police.
This is absurd. I have ZERO tools in my many many pieces of software and hardware that INSERT INFORMATION INTO MY CREATIONS WITHOUT MY CONSENT.. ZERO!
It feels violating because IT IS VIOLATING.
Adobe has poured a bucket of paint on my work/watermarked it/added forced content credentials - it's all the same.
I have no problem with AI. I have no problem using AI, composites, remove tools, whatever. I have no problem admitting it. I have no problem tagging it in my work if that becomes a standard. I have a problem with ADOBE taking away my choice.
Set aside the bevvy of logistic headaches and challenges that can, will, and have arised and then
ON PRINCIPLE this is an overstep that is unprecedented.
While not so dire of consequences, the essence of this is the same as big tech playing judge and jury and cutting people off a platform and or limiting access to their banking etc. Here we have big tech placing a tag on my work that is of censequence, getting it wrong, and me attempting to wash the disgusting feeling off of me.
Seriously. I despise Adobe, have since about my 3rd month of subscription years ago.
And yet PS is an essential tool for my workflow and nothing exists to replace it.
Removing features and making them a different additional subscription though, a lack of real, knowledgable Adobe provided support, and now thinking it's okay to advertise what tools I use..
At a certain point I will just start editing completely differently.
One of the greatest and ONLY satisfactions I get is COMPLETING a project.
I completed my project and as I was ready to sit back and acknowledge the work, a little twerp jumped up and began dancing the charleston.
Seriously.
In what world, where, when, to what artist has it EVER been okay for someone else to FORCE something into or onto the art?
It makes me feel sick.
Photoshop 25
windows 10 home
i7 7700
32 g ram
nvidia 1070
Sorry - but whilst we welcome debate in the forum, personal attacks on forum members, profanity and comparisons to gestapo are not.
I'm locking, and reporting, this thread which has deteriorated way beyond healthy debate
Dave
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THERE IS NO GENERATIVE AI in MY IMAGE.
I need first to be clear that even if there were, Adobe has no business force tagging creations I have made with the tools I pay for with information I do not want included.
By @Hunter Wade
First of all, just to establish the background, Content Credentials is a global initiative to verify the authenticity of images. Adobe is only one partner in this, along with organizations like the New York Times, the BBC and so on. Just to let you know that this is not Adobe's invention.
I'm sure you can appreciate that in todays world, establishing the provenance and autheticity of images is crucial. You probably also realize that AI generated images can not be copyrighted.
As part of this, any content made by AI is tagged this way. It is done automatically, and is tamper proof.
That said - if you can document that images are tagged in error, by listing the exact steps you used, I'm sure the engineers will be happy to take a look. This is new technology and bugs and errors are inevitable.
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You are suggesting that when I use AI as a tool to create an image, I do not have copyright on the image?
I believe you have a misunderstanding.
AI named Bill cannot receive copyright protection. I can though.
What steps were produced?
I worked on the project for 20something hours.
I used the generative tool while working in the project because it is new, it is neat, and if it gave me results I liked, I'd have kept it.
But I did not like the results. They looked like utter crap and I could not figure out how to upscale the oddly granular and blurry creations of grass. I also attempted making a boulder to see if it worked in my image. It did not.
So are my images meant to be tagged to let people know I was considering using AI?
Is this Minority Report?
As much as I follow developments in AI as well as adaptation, and policy, I'm surprised I missed the initiative you speak of.
I suspect that forming a private club that creates a class system for art and then makes some art wear a pink triangle and some art wear a star and some art etc. isn't going to fly.
This is incredibly problematic.
Anyway, how do I make the BS go away?
Because that is what it is.
Some dumbass will LOVE my image. It will remind them of grandma making cinnamin buns and they will feel all warm and fuzzy, until they find out AI might have been used. Then they will become irate and their grandma will turn in her grave and I will lose my contract.. All because Adobe decided to be Content police and ERRANTLY tag my art to say it was made with generative AI.
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I used the generative tool while working in the project because it is new, it is neat, and if it gave me results I liked, I'd have kept it.
By @Hunter Wade
But I did not like the results. They looked like utter crap and I could not figure out how to upscale the oddly granular and blurry creations of grass. I also attempted making a boulder to see if it worked in my image. It did not.
Which takes us off in another direction, that being Generative Credits. You hit the button and are presented with three image inserts that are a) not what you want, b) utter crap as Hunter described it, but you have just spent used a credit regardless of whether you use it or not. Plus it seems you are tagged with using Ai in your image whether you keep the generated content or reject it.
Regarding Content Credentials being tamper proof, what if you grabbed screen shots and pasted them to a new document? Would the Content Credentials be transferred?
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Regarding Content Credentials being tamper proof, what if you grabbed screen shots and pasted them to a new document? Would the Content Credentials be transferred?
By @Trevor.Dennis
That I don't know. Maybe it works like banknote blocking, where it inserts a hidden pattern in the pixels?
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Like Steganography? I can remember reading articles on PetaPixel about Steganography and an English professor who was an expert, but I know nothing about how it works, so if the information is embedded in the pixels, then maybe it is truly tamper-proof. It should be testable though.
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That I don't know. Maybe it works like banknote blocking, where it inserts a hidden pattern in the pixels?
By @D Fosse
Resampling would destroy this pixel data. I believe that it's metadata, however, there is some binary data in there which I haven't yet inspected.
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Yes, but at 2000 x 2000 pixels there isn't much room for resampling. But wouldn't it be great if it could immediately tell which parts of the image was AI?
<NYT editor: Put on your red and blue goggles, ladies and gentlemen, let's take a look at what we have here>
😄
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@Hunter Wade, I appreciate the conversation and the AI controversy in total as an ongoing dialogue for creatives, so thank you for bringing up your concerns. I feel your sincerity about it. I hope we are all able to navigate his new world together without enduring too much loss of our hearts. In any event, I'm curious to know what result you get when you use Adobe's Verify inspection tool on that particular photo, here: https://verify.contentauthenticity.org/inspect. Is it possible to share it with us?
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I'm curious to know what result you get when you use Adobe's Verify inspection tool on that particular photo, here: https://verify.contentauthenticity.org/inspect. Is it possible to share it with us?
By @J E L
Both of the attached JPEG files had the butterfly (moth?) added using Generative Fill.
Only one of the JPEG files passes the verification inspector website tool.
So at the moment (Content Credentials is still in beta), this is easy to circumvent using a native Photoshop feature.
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You are suggesting that when I use AI as a tool to create an image, I do not have copyright on the image?
By @Hunter Wade
That is absolutely correct. There have already been court decisions about this, and it is now established practice.
For copyright to apply, it has to be created by a human. Typing in a prompt does not qualify.
I'll let the lawyers decide how much of the image has to be AI generated, but a reasonable assumption would be a significant part of the image.
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@D Fosse, I'm thinking this only applies to AI wholly-produced text-to-image works. The level of human creativity involved in a work is still a significant consideration whether the US Copyright Office will grant copyright protection. From this article: https://www.engadget.com/ai-generated-images-from-text-cant-be-copyrighted-us-government-rules-17424...
However, the office has left the door open to granting copyright protections to work with AI-generated elements. “The answer will depend on the circumstances, particularly how the AI tool operates and how it was used to create the final work,” it said.
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Yes, but the implication is a more creative use of AI than just typing in a prompt. Which is common sense, really.
I'm fully aware of the distinction. I work at an art museum for contemporary art, and I can think of several artists who I can imagine are itching to get into this. I'm not saying it's not possible to use creatively, I'm sure it is.
But typing in a prompt isn't it.
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Sure, I was responding to your “That is absolutely correct” statement in order to bring more clarification to the question. Using GF in Photoshop to add or change an element, or to fill out a canvas within your own image or artwork is likely still going to be accepted for U.S. copyright protection. The bigger question is how to go about enforcing copyright violations when your image has used even a small amount of AI. Most people don't take the extra step to register their works in the first place. Or, as @Hunter Wade asks, what about when you simply tried AI but later abandoned it? If the Copyright Office is going to use AI verification techniques for every image submitted, that could get sticky, too. As you said, that's for lawyers and such.
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@D Fosse I have a lifetime of copyright law experience. 30 years anyway.
While I have seen the cases where duder was attempting to award the AI itself a copyright registration, I have not nor do I find information about a creator using a tool not having copyright.
A person snapping a photo also didn't literally create the thing. They just had the wherewhithal to present and frame it in a certain context to communicate something new.
I'd appreciate linked sources.
Then, if you are correct, give it a minute. That will not hold. Not once people lose their irrational fears (as opposed to the rational concerns) and recognize the tool for what it is. Namely the same thing most new tools are; a way to accomplish more of what I intend to accomplish with greater efficiency.
I've been moderately obsessed with AI, the applications, the tech, the moral, ethical, & philosophical considerations for over 20 years. So I recognize I am primed to be more comfortable in this conversation than many and that I likely have quite a different understanding of the tech than those who have only just been introduced to the idea.
Mash that up with my experience with and interest in (let alone necessity for understanding) copyright law and I am triple surprised I'd have missed a precedent establishing court decision regarding a content creator's copyright on works utilizing generative AI.
Not unimaginable. Just surprising.
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The fainting couch is over that away ----->
Methinks this is a lot of hystrionics for something fairly minor and innocuous. And I recommend reading up on recent court cases regarding copyright and AI.
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@Hunter Wade, ha, I'm old enough to remember the argument, “Every photograph is the product of an automatic device—the camera. Unlike a painter whose every brushstroke is mediated through her mental vision, critics cast a photographer as a mere technician relegated to clicking a shutter button.”
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@Lumigraphics
Thanks for stopping by to offer your judgmental attitude about my concerns.
I cannot be held responsible for your inability to extrapolate.
[abuse removed by moderator]
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Thank you for the profane remark. I've reported it.
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I'm not sure what is being referred to because my understanding is the thing doesn't allow profanity.
Anyway, people who are upset by profanity are just demonstrating they are judgmental.
Though I alreay knew that about you.
Hey moderator, I am quite certain you missed the abuse and might have been gaslighted.
Not sure, but the comment by duder here is textbook harassment.
Pretendintg you don't grasp the sentiment he brought clearly to add agitation, not to move the conversation forward, only to mock me.
Get with the spirit and do not be obtuse. I'm gay, I have autism, and PTSD; not the first time some jerk has been insensitive and demonstrated they are a loser. Also not the first time some type of authority has reinforced the behavior of the person picking on me.
Legit. Check yourself. Not cool at all.
In fact, I need to know who the moderator is who has labeled my retort made in self defense as abuse and let the abuser feel a counterfeit sense of inflated power.
I suppose anyone will be able to see the edit history who has authority.
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@J E L
And so on ever does the story go.
The horse and carriage inductry spent a FORTUNE on smear campaigns against automobiles.
Elephants were electrocuted to death in public to disuade people from the evils of AC electricity.
Yet for all their resistance to cars, how is the horse and buggy industry doing today?
The meta of what we are growing through is called a, "structural change."
As opposed to cyclical changes like fashion trends, structural changes don't give you a vote.
Adapt or die.
Every structural change in the last couple hundred years has been vehemently resisted by some, causing their own demise.
Those who get involved in the conversation early, adapt, and lead get to see the change moving in the direction they prefer and that is the best we get. We don't get a vote. We don't get to stop it. We will NEVER live in a pre electricity world, a pre atomic energy world, a pre-AI world.
Then, as the tech is adapted by the early adopters, EVERY structural change in the past couple hundred years has also been accompanied by those in resistance attempting to somehow discredit the reults of the new tech.
First it was, "Photos arent real art, tehy weren't done by hand." Some time later it was, "Compositing isn't real photography."
"That's not a pencil. > That's not a mirror and sulfer. > That's not a digital sensor. > That's not code representing dots on a matrix that only exist there because you had a desire to express something. err or ummm..
I just brought the conversation public on FB and setup an appointment with my attorney (not because I'm absurdly contemplating legal action) to have a conversation about my interpretation of the implications.
Since I come at the spirit of the issue from a few angles in that post, I will add it as another comment for posterity.
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All of which is exactly my argument. It's absolutely possible to use AI creatively. Photoshop's generative fill may be a tool for creative use, but it's not creative in itself, no more than any of the other Photoshop tools. It's a screwdriver, it's not a car. That's what Photoshop is and always was: a toolbox.
I think that distinction is pretty self-evident.
As @Leslie Moak Murray so brilliantly put it the other day, you're not an artist; you're a typist.
But if you're a good typist, you can use that to create a great novel.
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We will NEVER live in a pre electricity world, a pre atomic energy world, a pre-AI world.
One thing that might kill AI is a collision with climate change activism. But that's very doubtful. Whenever asked, all AI models and proponents will insist AI, with all its wonders, will solve that problem with new technology. Global CO₂ emissions from training AI is likely to remain relatively small, they claim. Why do we believe that so easily? The development and use of AI is extremely energy intensive. And far more for imaging than text. What about maintaining AI's physical infrastructure? That requires massive power consumption. And things are just getting started, folks.
The volume of data in one server center is doubling in size within a few years or faster. Who stands to win and lose? Perhaps the smart money play is in cloud servers! Meanwhile, those who shouted from the rafters that we would be dead in X number of years if we don't act NOW—NOW don't seem to have a care in the world about AI energy consumption. The new toys entertain us.
Of course, there is always an option not to use any of it at all; at least as a personal statement. But, I agree, this is structural change; a monster we all play a part in making—if only by allowing it to thrive in the wild until suddenly it's everywhere, and we are choking on it. As I started out saying, @Hunter Wade, to me, it's a welcome conversation and I applaud you for not shying away from it.
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