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Forced Content Credentials on my Art (may As well watermark our images with the Adobe Logo)

Participant ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

Here's an interesting yet gross tech adaptation moment I did not see comoing.
I feel utterly violated. 
Upon export of an image I just completed to send off I am being prompted that a content credential is being applied because generative AI was used.

And this is Adobe's to watermark in my image metadata how?
That is the first problem. [cursing removed] with watermarking my images. If Adobe wants to watermark my images, they can pay the subscription. Until then, this has ethical implications that transcend the nature of our relationship. 
The second problem is: THERE IS NO GENERATIVE AI in MY IMAGE.

I need first to be clear that even if there were, Adobe has no business force tagging creations I have made with the tools I pay for with information I do not want included. 
Among dozens of other concerns moral and ethical, there's the challenge that I face now; Adobe is playing content creation police and they are issuing a ticket for Ai when there is none and I CANNOT OVERRIDE IT.

Yes Content Credentials are turned off. Doesn't Matter. Adobe has decided that I used AI and that they have an ethical obligation to informing others that view my image. 
I don't think it's any of their flipping business. I do think they are best to let that be decided by the artist and the artistic community. I do think they better get it freaking right in the first place if they want to argue why they should be the Content Credential Police. 

This is absurd. I have ZERO tools in my many many pieces of software and hardware that INSERT INFORMATION INTO MY CREATIONS WITHOUT MY CONSENT.. ZERO!

It feels violating because IT IS VIOLATING.
Adobe has poured a bucket of paint on my work/watermarked it/added forced content credentials - it's all the same. 

I have no problem with AI. I have no problem using AI, composites, remove tools, whatever. I have no problem admitting it. I have no problem tagging it in my work if that becomes a standard. I have a problem with ADOBE taking away my choice. 
Set aside the bevvy of logistic headaches and challenges that can, will, and have arised and then
ON PRINCIPLE this is an overstep that is unprecedented. 

While not so dire of consequences, the essence of this is the same as big tech playing judge and jury and cutting people off a platform and or limiting access to their banking etc. Here we have big tech placing a tag on my work that is of censequence, getting it wrong, and me attempting to wash the disgusting feeling off of me. 
Seriously. I despise Adobe, have since about my 3rd month of subscription years ago.
And yet PS is an essential tool for my workflow and nothing exists to replace it. 
Removing features and making them a different additional subscription though, a lack of real, knowledgable Adobe provided support, and now thinking it's okay to advertise what tools I use.. 
At a certain point I will just start editing completely differently. 

One of the greatest and ONLY satisfactions I get is COMPLETING a project. 
I completed my project and as I was ready to sit back and acknowledge the work, a little twerp jumped up and began dancing the charleston. 
Seriously.
In what world, where, when, to what artist has it EVER been okay for someone else to FORCE something into or onto the art? 
It makes me feel sick. 



Photoshop 25 
windows 10 home
i7 7700
32 g ram
nvidia 1070

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correct answers 1 Correct answer

Community Expert , Sep 28, 2023 Sep 28, 2023

Sorry - but whilst we welcome debate in the forum, personal attacks on forum members, profanity and comparisons to gestapo are not.

I'm locking, and reporting, this thread which has deteriorated way beyond healthy debate

Dave

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
quote

THERE IS NO GENERATIVE AI in MY IMAGE.

I need first to be clear that even if there were, Adobe has no business force tagging creations I have made with the tools I pay for with information I do not want included.


By @Hunter Wade

 

First of all, just to establish the background, Content Credentials is a global initiative to verify the authenticity of images. Adobe is only one partner in this, along with organizations like the New York Times, the BBC and so on. Just to let you know that this is not Adobe's invention.

 

I'm sure you can appreciate that in todays world, establishing the provenance and autheticity of images is crucial. You probably also realize that AI generated images can not be copyrighted.

 

As part of this, any content made by AI is tagged this way. It is done automatically, and is tamper proof.

 

That said - if you can document that images are tagged in error, by listing the exact steps you used, I'm sure the engineers will be happy to take a look. This is new technology and bugs and errors are inevitable.

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Participant ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

You are suggesting that when I use AI as a tool to create an image, I do not have copyright on the image? 
I believe you have a misunderstanding. 
AI named Bill cannot receive copyright protection. I can though. 

What steps were produced?
I worked on the project for 20something hours. 

I used the generative tool while working in the project because it is new, it is neat, and if it gave me results I liked, I'd have kept it. 
But I did not like the results. They looked like utter crap and I could not figure out how to upscale the oddly granular and blurry creations of grass. I also attempted making a boulder to see if it worked in my image. It did not. 

So are my images meant to be tagged to let people know I was considering using AI?
Is this Minority Report?
As much as I follow developments in AI as well as adaptation, and policy, I'm surprised I missed the initiative you speak of. 
I suspect that forming a private club that creates a class system for art and then makes some art wear a pink triangle and some art wear a star and some art etc. isn't going to fly. 
This is incredibly problematic. 

Anyway, how do I make the BS go away? 
Because that is what it is. 
Some dumbass will LOVE my image. It will remind them of grandma making cinnamin buns and they will feel all warm and fuzzy, until they find out AI might have been used. Then they will become irate and their grandma will turn in her grave and I will lose my contract.. All because Adobe decided to be Content police and ERRANTLY tag my art to say it was made with generative AI. 


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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
quote

I used the generative tool while working in the project because it is new, it is neat, and if it gave me results I liked, I'd have kept it. 
But I did not like the results. They looked like utter crap and I could not figure out how to upscale the oddly granular and blurry creations of grass. I also attempted making a boulder to see if it worked in my image. It did not. 

By @Hunter Wade

 

Which takes us off in another direction, that being Generative Credits.  You hit the button and are presented with three image inserts that are a) not what you want, b) utter crap as Hunter described it, but you have just spent used a credit regardless of whether you use it or not.   Plus it seems you are tagged with using Ai in your image whether you keep the generated content or reject it.

 

Regarding Content Credentials being tamper proof, what if you grabbed screen shots and pasted them to a new document?  Would the Content Credentials be transferred?  

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
quoteRegarding Content Credentials being tamper proof, what if you grabbed screen shots and pasted them to a new document?  Would the Content Credentials be transferred?  

By @Trevor.Dennis

 

That I don't know. Maybe it works like banknote blocking, where it inserts a hidden pattern in the pixels?

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

Like Steganography?  I can remember reading articles on PetaPixel about Steganography and an English professor who was an expert, but I know nothing about how it works, so if the information is embedded in the pixels, then maybe it is truly tamper-proof.  It should be testable though.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steganography

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
quote

That I don't know. Maybe it works like banknote blocking, where it inserts a hidden pattern in the pixels?


By @D Fosse

 

Resampling would destroy this pixel data. I believe that it's metadata, however, there is some binary data in there which I haven't yet inspected.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

Yes, but at 2000 x 2000 pixels there isn't much room for resampling. But wouldn't it be great if it could immediately tell which parts of the image was AI?

 

<NYT editor: Put on your red and blue goggles, ladies and gentlemen, let's take a look at what we have here>

 

😄

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

@Hunter Wade, I appreciate the conversation and the AI controversy in total as an ongoing dialogue for creatives, so thank you for bringing up your concerns. I feel your sincerity about it. I hope we are all able to navigate his new world together without enduring too much loss of our hearts. In any event, I'm curious to know what result you get when you use Adobe's Verify inspection tool on that particular photo, here: https://verify.contentauthenticity.org/inspect. Is it possible to share it with us?

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
quote

I'm curious to know what result you get when you use Adobe's Verify inspection tool on that particular photo, here: https://verify.contentauthenticity.org/inspect. Is it possible to share it with us?


By @J E L

 

Both of the attached JPEG files had the butterfly (moth?) added using Generative Fill.

 

Only one of the JPEG files passes the verification inspector website tool.

 

So at the moment (Content Credentials is still in beta), this is easy to circumvent using a native Photoshop feature.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
quote
You are suggesting that when I use AI as a tool to create an image, I do not have copyright on the image?

By @Hunter Wade

 

That is absolutely correct. There have already been court decisions about this, and it is now established practice.

 

For copyright to apply, it has to be created by a human. Typing in a prompt does not qualify.

 

I'll let the lawyers decide how much of the image has to be AI generated, but a reasonable assumption would be a significant part of the image.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

@D Fosse, I'm thinking this only applies to AI wholly-produced text-to-image works. The level of human creativity involved in a work is still a significant consideration whether the US Copyright Office will grant copyright protection. From this article: https://www.engadget.com/ai-generated-images-from-text-cant-be-copyrighted-us-government-rules-17424...

 

However, the office has left the door open to granting copyright protections to work with AI-generated elements. “The answer will depend on the circumstances, particularly how the AI tool operates and how it was used to create the final work,” it said.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

Yes, but the implication is a more creative use of AI than just typing in a prompt. Which is common sense, really.

 

I'm fully aware of the distinction. I work at an art museum for contemporary art, and I can think of several artists who I can imagine are itching to get into this. I'm not saying it's not possible to use creatively, I'm sure it is.

 

But typing in a prompt isn't it.

 

 

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

Sure, I was responding to your “That is absolutely correct” statement in order to bring more clarification to the question. Using GF in Photoshop to add or change an element, or to fill out a canvas within your own image or artwork is likely still going to be accepted for U.S. copyright protection. The bigger question is how to go about enforcing copyright violations when your image has used even a small amount of AI. Most people don't take the extra step to register their works in the first place. Or, as @Hunter Wade asks, what about when you simply tried AI but later abandoned it? If the Copyright Office is going to use AI verification techniques for every image submitted, that could get sticky, too. As you said, that's for lawyers and such.

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Participant ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

@D Fosse  I have a lifetime of copyright law experience. 30 years anyway. 
While I have seen the cases where duder was attempting to award the AI itself a copyright registration, I have not nor do I find information about a creator using a tool not having copyright. 
A person snapping a photo also didn't literally create the thing. They just had the wherewhithal to present and frame it in a certain context to communicate something new. 

I'd appreciate linked sources. 

Then, if you are correct, give it a minute. That will not hold. Not once people lose their irrational fears (as opposed to the rational concerns) and recognize the tool for what it is. Namely the same thing most new tools are; a way to accomplish more of what I intend to accomplish with greater efficiency. 

I've been moderately obsessed with AI, the applications, the tech, the moral, ethical, & philosophical considerations for over 20 years. So I recognize I am primed to be more comfortable in this conversation than many and that I likely have quite a different understanding of the tech than those who have only just been introduced to the idea. 
Mash that up with my experience with and interest in (let alone necessity for understanding) copyright law and I am triple surprised I'd have missed a precedent establishing court decision regarding a content creator's copyright on works utilizing generative AI. 
Not unimaginable. Just surprising.  

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LEGEND ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

The fainting couch is over that away ----->

Methinks this is a lot of hystrionics for something fairly minor and innocuous. And I recommend reading up on recent court cases regarding copyright and AI.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

@Hunter Wade, ha, I'm old enough to remember the argument, “Every photograph is the product of an automatic device—the camera. Unlike a painter whose every brushstroke is mediated through her mental vision, critics cast a photographer as a mere technician relegated to clicking a shutter button.”

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Participant ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

@Lumigraphics 
Thanks for stopping by to offer your judgmental attitude about my concerns. 
I cannot be held responsible for your inability to extrapolate. 

[abuse removed by moderator]

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LEGEND ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

Thank you for the profane remark. I've reported it.

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Participant ,
Sep 27, 2023 Sep 27, 2023

I'm not sure what is being referred to because my understanding is the thing doesn't allow profanity.
Anyway, people who are upset by profanity are just demonstrating they are judgmental. 
Though I alreay knew that about you. 
Hey moderator, I am quite certain you missed the abuse and might have been gaslighted. 
Not sure, but the comment by duder here is textbook harassment. 
Pretendintg you don't grasp the sentiment he brought clearly to add agitation, not to move the conversation forward, only to mock me. 
Get with the spirit and do not be obtuse. I'm gay, I have autism, and PTSD; not the first time some jerk has been insensitive and demonstrated they are a loser. Also not the first time some type of authority has reinforced the behavior of the person picking on me. 
Legit. Check yourself. Not cool at all. 
In fact, I need to know who the moderator is who has labeled my retort made in self defense as abuse and let the abuser feel a counterfeit sense of inflated power. 
I suppose anyone will be able to see the edit history who has authority. 

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Participant ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

@J E L  
And so on ever does the story go. 
The horse and carriage inductry spent a FORTUNE on smear campaigns against automobiles. 
Elephants were electrocuted to death in public to disuade people from the evils of AC electricity. 

Yet for all their resistance to cars, how is the horse and buggy industry doing today?

The meta of what we are growing through is called a, "structural change."
As opposed to cyclical changes like fashion trends, structural changes don't give you a vote. 
Adapt or die. 
Every structural change in the last couple hundred years has been vehemently resisted by some, causing their own demise. 
Those who get involved in the conversation early, adapt, and lead get to see the change moving in the direction they prefer and that is the best we get. We don't get a vote. We don't get to stop it. We will NEVER live in a pre electricity world, a pre atomic energy world, a pre-AI world. 
Then, as the tech is adapted by the early adopters, EVERY structural change in the past couple hundred years has also been accompanied by those in resistance attempting to somehow discredit the reults of the new tech. 
First it was, "Photos arent real art, tehy weren't done by hand." Some time later it was, "Compositing isn't real photography." 
"That's not a pencil. > That's not a mirror and sulfer. > That's not a digital sensor. > That's not code representing dots on a matrix that only exist there because you had a desire to express something. err or ummm.. 

I just brought the conversation public on FB and setup an appointment with my attorney (not because I'm absurdly contemplating legal action) to have a conversation about my interpretation of the implications. 

Since I come at the spirit of the issue from a few angles in that post, I will add it as another comment for posterity. 



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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

All of which is exactly my argument. It's absolutely possible to use AI creatively. Photoshop's generative fill may be a tool for creative use, but it's not creative in itself, no more than any of the other Photoshop tools. It's a screwdriver, it's not a car. That's what Photoshop is and always was: a toolbox.

 

I think that distinction is pretty self-evident.

 

As @Leslie Moak Murray so brilliantly put it the other day, you're not an artist; you're a typist.

 

But if you're a good typist, you can use that to create a great novel.

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Community Expert ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023

We will NEVER live in a pre electricity world, a pre atomic energy world, a pre-AI world.


One thing that might kill AI is a collision with climate change activism. But that's very doubtful. Whenever asked, all AI models and proponents will insist AI, with all its wonders, will solve that problem with new technology. Global CO₂ emissions from training AI is likely to remain relatively small, they claim. Why do we believe that so easily? The development and use of AI is extremely energy intensive. And far more for imaging than text. What about maintaining AI's physical infrastructure? That requires massive power consumption. And things are just getting started, folks.

 

The volume of data in one server center is doubling in size within a few years or faster. Who stands to win and lose? Perhaps the smart money play is in cloud servers! Meanwhile, those who shouted from the rafters that we would be dead in X number of years if we don't act NOW—NOW don't seem to have a care in the world about AI energy consumption. The new toys entertain us.

 

Of course, there is always an option not to use any of it at all; at least as a personal statement. But, I agree, this is structural change; a monster we all play a part in making—if only by allowing it to thrive in the wild until suddenly it's everywhere, and we are choking on it. As I started out saying, @Hunter Wade, to me, it's a welcome conversation and I applaud you for not shying away from it.

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Participant ,
Sep 26, 2023 Sep 26, 2023
Hi people. I hope you are having a great day!
I am having a neurodivergent meltdown of sorts. It's cool to be in one of my quirks and be aware, 'OHHHH this is AUTISM!"
I think this is the first time I have caught this one while it is operating me.
I find myself overly fixated on a new, "feature," in Adobe products called, "content credentials."
So already, hopefully you know being fixated is uncalled for.
Except to me and my brain, Adobe must be stopped before it is too late. I react to this minor manifestation of a dangerous principle as if it were already played out to the extreme (a type of fascist censorship).
There is an actual issue and I will explain it, it's just not as urgent as my entire nervous system and body is treating it.
My brain connects (some) things very very quickly AND finds connections in places many would not. The aspect of my brain that has relative pitch, can hear a song once and sing it (including singing you jingles and theme songs from the early 80s), that recognizes frequency, ALSO interprets just about everything as vibration. Concepts have a frequency, people's motivations have a frequency, attitudes have a frequency, artifacts, tools, foods, etc all have a frequency.
When there is a discordant sound, no matter how faint, I am likely to hear it. Someone's song not match their dance? A policy at a workplace violate workers' rights? Is a retail store playing a bait and switch?
Sometimes I hear the discordant sound and I am not able to clearly identify it. It can be especially frustrating when I can find the source but don't have the clarity to explain what is out of alignment.
My current issue with Adobe is not fully fleshed out, though I believe I have enough detail to paint the picture so you understand my concern. This is relevant to just about everyone whether you use Adobe products or not because it has to do with Private Big Tech anointing themselves with authority in your life.
Adobe has introduced a feature called, "Content Credentials."
This is metadata stored in image files that includes information such as the creator's name, contact info, what software was used, what tools in the software were used, what dates and times, etc.
This can be incredibly valuable and up until recently it was choose in/choose out. It can be entirely turned off in the settings.
When it is on, the option to include credentials is presented on the export screen. Note this is in addition to metadata that ever has been able to store much of that information should we choose to include it. For instance, I do not need the new content credentials feature to include my name and contact info in the metadata.
The main distinction of the new credential feature seems to be its ability to store a record of the editing process as well as keeping record of any other credentialed elements added to a work. So If I drop Suzy Sue's image into my work and blend it in, I won't be able to hide it. The use will be noted in my credentials and suzy will get her proper credit or have grounds for cease and desist etc.
It is all part of an ADOBE LED initiative to, 'Help determine authenticity,' in Art called the CAI, "Content Authenticity Initiative."
Yeah, Me thinks not. Unequivocally NOT a good idea to let Adobe in cahoots with the BBC and Microsoft be defining AUTHENTICITY for us. (Among many other things they have assigned themselves the authority to decide.)
Yesterday I finished a project I began last April. That's a sweet satisfaction. Completion. As I went to export my image, Adobe PS notified me that Content Credentials would be included in my art (despite me having the feature turned off) because it contained AI generated elements.
I stop here because that is the problem. Adobe has taken it upon themselves to watermark, scarlet letter, tag, out, pink triangle, my art.
Before you jump to, "well if AI, then.." make sure you flesh that out to the extreme to see clearly the spirit of such an assertion.
I'll also note that I see the importance of having a method to make the distinction between my brain telling a pencil what to make VS my brain telling a computer what to make, ie to be able to identify works created with generative AI. This may not remain as important as AI is further refined and adapted. For now though, the distinction can be of value if for nothing else than to help us clearly see how it is being used, how it is working, what it creates.
What we have currently is a private corporate club of Tech Giants and Publishers who have decided to be the Content Police and are now force branding people's works based on the private corporation's interpretation of Copyright law, content creation, moral and ethical considerations, oh and let's not forget, "bottom line." They have decided upon the definition of Authenticity and have already begun drawing a line to establish their arbitrary distinction that has been made without our considerations.
When, where, how has it EVER been okay to force a watermark or force anything into or onto another person's creation? Since when is it okay to mark up an artist's creation?
Even if "hidden" in metadata, they are altering my work to include elements I do not approve of. How about this; they are altering my work. 'nuf said.
They have placed a tag on my work that IS of CONSEQUENCE. With AI being so new, that tag could mean any number of things to every different person. Likely it will NOT communicate anything of significance that can be accurately discerned from its placement. INCLUDING whether or not the image you are seeing has elements generated by AI.. Because in my case, my art that Adobe put a pink triangle on is totally straight. I have NO generative AI in the image.
Now to be clear, the fact that there is no AI in my finished work is secondary to the fact that it was tagged and points to one reason it is a problem. Do you want an unaccountable major tech company deciding when you have access to your bank account? Do you want a big tech company to decide if you have been tested for covid recently enough or to label you, "unvaccinated," if you choose to not support Pfizer? What if someone accuses you of having harassed them 22 years ago? Should Google have the authority to cut you off from your bank accounts or blacklist you from x, y, z; EVER let alone before you've had your day in court? Then, how do you imagine you would feel to awake one day to find you have been branded with the scarlett letter for adultery but you have not gotten laid in 7+ years?
This is THAT slippery slope. What gives Adobe and The New York Times the authority to create an ART class system which labels some work with a brand or watermark etc that can and will be used against it in a discriminatory and prejudiced fashion then FORCE us to comply? They have every right to propose a system and invite our participation. Forcing it is gross and I argue it is a violation of my rights.
I hope I have thrown enough elements out such that someone reading, YOU reading are picking up what I'm putting down.
This isn't about AI or concerns about it enslaving us.
This is simply about a private club of tech giants deciding upon what is essentially a class system (Composites in the line on the left, AI generation on the right, Hand drawn takes the center line. Photographers have no wait at desk 4) and then determining they have the right to force information into the creations of content creators all around the world.
The fact that MOST people do not understand AI does not help. Tagging artist creations with an AI logo will lead to all sorts of confusion and frustrations among patrons and artists alike.
In my current case, I could give my work to the commissioner, they see the AI tag, think that means something other than what it means (what DOES it mean By the way) and refuse to pay me. Again, this is more egregious since there is NO generative AI in my image.
(So much for their assertion that this is to help people decide what is trustworthy. ADOBE is not Trustworthy. And they are going to police that for others?)
One more note. If I use the FREE version of Powerdirector video editor, they limit some tools AND they watermark the video. That's fair. They are paying for it, I'm getting a service, they get an advertiser. As soon as I subscribe, they no longer place the watermark.
Why? Because the tools we pay for have no business forcing us to create things. Sorry Adobe, you don't get to BOTH take my subscription payment AND watermark my work.
Issues triaged:
1) Private Tech Giant Club creating their own rules and ethical code without public discourse and forcing it upon the public INCLUDING granting themselves permission to alter the works of people who pay for their products.
2) Any company taking payment for a service, then believing they still have a right to alter the thing purchased. (There are exceptions where that IS the service.)
3) Doing any of the above except add to that, doing it WRONG by your own method.
I wouldn't have a problem with my art being errantly tagged as AI generated if Adobe would mind their own (profanity removed by moderator) business. Can't have errant tag if they don't force tag my work.
 
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