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Humberto Pinhão
Participant
April 29, 2017
Question

GCR

  • April 29, 2017
  • 4 replies
  • 7960 views

Hello,

I need to print a several images in offset, these images are constructed in cmyk but they visually must seem like a BW image.

I want to know if use GCR in that images will they be better in quality? I would like to know what degree (value) in GCR - light medium or another one i can use.

The images are low key.

CanalPy

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    4 replies

    Stephen Marsh
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    April 30, 2017

    I personally would not use or recommend Custom CMYK unless in a very specific situation. The Custom “legacy” CMYK engine is very powerful and flexible – however it is not based on any standard or modern condition which can lead to unexpected results unless the user is extremely knowledgeable.

    You should get very good results with the following profile, even if the end conditions end up being GRACoL or SWOP rather than the intended Fogra39/ISO Coated v2 (yes, the GCR is that heavy for neutral tones!):

    coated_FOGRA39_GCR_bas.icc

    If the source RGB images are low key, then you should take care to create as much contrast as possible for “dark images” and err on the side of caution in making the darkest point that requires detail a little bit lighter just in case you wish to guard against the shadows plugging up too much. So make good use of tonal edits including curves and the shadow/highlight command and keep in mind that you can always have the RGB a little bit lighter, convert to CMYK and then add extra tweaks to the K channel (taking care not to push the total ink limit).

    Good luck!

    Per Berntsen
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    April 30, 2017

    I take it that you want black & white images to print neutral, without any color cast?

    In my experience, this is practically impossible with a standard cmyk profile, and you're on the right track with the GCR.

    (D Fosse - are you saying that you're getting neutral results printing B&W images with a standard profile?)

    You have to discuss this with your printer, but setting Black Generation to Heavy should make the job easier.

    This will use more black ink, and less CMY, decreasing the likelihood for color casts. (see the difference between Medium and Heavy in the screenshots below)

    If your printer does a lot of this kind of work, they might even have custom profile for this.

    This kind of work requires close collaboration with the printer - do not use Custom CMYK without talking to the printer first.

    If the printer can't help you, or doesn't know what you're talking about, find a different printer.

    Also, do a test run first, and be present during the actual printing.

    Although the print may look neutral when viewed with the 5000K light by the printing press (or daylight), it may look very different when viewed under any other artificial light - fluorescent or incandescent. (this is called metameric failure, and a magenta cast is very common)

    So it's very useful to have a different artificial light source available close to the printing press.

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    April 30, 2017

    Never been a problem for me. But no argument, and I do see the point of the procedure - if it is a problem.

    We have a regular printer that we always work with, and I suppose they're starting to know what we want...

    Yes, you're right that metamerism failure can pull unexpected tricks. I've never seen much of that with offset, seems to be more pronounced with inkjet. Maybe I just tend to look at publications in daylight.

    My gut instinct is to not do surgery on profiles, it tends to open up cans of nasty worms. Especially in CMYK, where the profiles are pretty complex to begin with.

    Stephen Marsh
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    May 1, 2017

    D Fosse wrote:

    We have a regular printer that we always work with, and I suppose they're starting to know what we want...

    Yes, you're right that metamerism failure can pull unexpected tricks. I've never seen much of that with offset, seems to be more pronounced with inkjet. Maybe I just tend to look at publications in daylight.

    Yes, it probably helps to work with one (good) printer who knows what the customer wants.

    As for metameric failure, I have found it to be a problem with offset only. For inkjet prints I use an Epson 9880 (with Advanced black & white), and the tonal difference with varying lighting is negligible. Since my artwork is black & white, and I publish books from time to time, I have spent a lot of time studying offset prints under different light sources. (and have had a lot of frustration with a magenta cast ...) Offset inks seem to reflect light very differently from injket inks, particularly magenta.

    Stephen A Marsh wrote:

    The Custom “legacy” CMYK engine is very powerful and flexible – however it is not based on any standard or modern condition which can lead to unexpected results unless the user is extremely knowledgeable.

    I wasn't aware that Custom CMYK is considered "legacy". Do you mean that there have been developments in offset printing since this feature was introduced in Photoshop?


    Custom CMYK is not…

    The “Eurostandard” ink colours are not Fogra/ISO/PSO etc. The default SWOP (Coated) ink colours are not the SWOP that is expected in modern or current printing specifications.

    This is 100% cyan in Web Coated SWOP 2006 Grade 5 Paper:

    This is 100% cyan in Photoshop 5 Default CMYK (which is the legacy default Custom CMYK SWOP 20% dot gain, medium GCR setting):

    This is of course just a simple example of solid cyan, the same is true for other primary solids, tints and 2, 3, or 4 colour combinations.

    Here is a neutral RGB gray step wedge converted to Web Coated SWOP 2006 Grade 5 Paper:

    Here is the same neutral RGB gray step wedge converted to the legacy Photoshop 5 Default CMYK (SWOP) and then softproofed in Web Coated SWOP 2006 Grade 5 paper conditions:

    The first image is neutral, the second image is slightly blue casted. With higher GCR this may be less of an issue as more K would be in use with less CMY. However for a full colour image or different output conditions, the discrepancy between Custom CMYK and the correct ICC profile may be more apparent (neutrals, colours, overall density etc).

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    April 29, 2017

    https://forums.adobe.com/people/Humberto+Pinh%C3%A3o  wrote

    these images are constructed in cmyk

    You may actually have a small problem already, because if you created this using a different CMYK profile than the one that will eventually be used, results may not be optimal. CMYK to CMYK conversions should always be avoided for a number of reasons.

    It's always best to work in RGB and not convert until the end.

    Even if you do have the right profile, you need to be careful to not exceed total ink limit. This is again built into CMYK profiles, so a conversion from RGB is always safe. But any subsequent editing may put you over unless you're careful. The result can be smearing and drying problems.

    D Fosse
    Community Expert
    Community Expert
    April 29, 2017

    Gray component replacement is built into current standard CMYK profiles. Since GCR both saves ink and cleans up areas of high ink usage, I would think it's already dialed up as high as practically possible.

    My advice is just to make sure you get the correct profile from the printer. Here in Europe most presses are calibrated to ISO standards, and a profile like ISO Coated (ECI) 300% is usually very accurate. I have never noticed any color balance problems - and I send a lot of work to offset print, most of it color critical.